0:02: Welcome to the Fully Expressed podcast. 
 0:04: We're your host Karenna and Samantha. 
 0:06: This show is your permission slip to stop holding back. 
 0:10: Here we talk about what it really means to live unapologetically you in your relationships, your business, and your everyday life. 
 0:17: We believe the most magnetic version of you is rooted in self-expression, honesty, vulnerability, and showing up fully as you are. 
 0:24: When you own that, you naturally attract the people, the opportunities, and the life that is meant for you. 
 0:30: On today's episode, we sat down with one of our friends, Alex Terranova to talk all about the men's perspective, specifically in relationship dynamics and within partnership. 
 0:41: This episode is so great because you're going to get so much insight into the men's process, not only the men's current process, but just like the history of how women have really stepped into feeling more empowered and where has that left men and I think the more that we can understand, the more compassion and love that we can show up for the men in our lives. 
 1:01: It was so insightful to hear his perspective and his thoughts on what's actually going on under the surface. 
 1:08: Yeah, and he really talked so much about how men can be invited into more and what does it really look like for them to also have access to the same amount of things that we have access to. 
 1:17: And so whether you want to understand more about men or if you have men in your life, that would be great, that I want to understand more about themselves. 
 1:25: This would be a really great episode to send them. 
 1:27: Yeah, Alex is a success and fulfillment coach who helps high performing leaders and organizations achieving lasting success, clarity. 
 1:35: And building a life and business that actually feels as good as it looks. 
 1:39: He has over 20 years of experience in hospitality, franchising, and leadership development and brings a unique blend of operational strategy and human potential to his coaching. 
 1:48: He's a professional certified coach, trained in psych K ontological coaching and mental performance mastery, known for mixing raw truth with real heart. 
 1:59: Let's be honest, Alex hangs out with a lot of men. 
 2:01: So you're going to get a lot of great insights, so go ahead and tune in and enjoy. 
 2:07: Welcome Alex to the podcast. 
 2:09: We're so excited to have you today. 
 2:12: One of the reasons that we really wanted to have you on, besides the amazing work that you do is we spoke to you about a video of ours that went viral in regards to a woman saying that she didn't want to be. 
 2:22: Married anymore and we really wanted to get the men's perspective of that conversation, that side of life and as we had our conversation together off camera, there was a lot of talk about how there's a lot of false narratives being shared around this subject, so. 
 2:42: Yeah, welcome. 
 2:44: There's so much. 
 2:48: No, thanks, thanks for having me, both of you. 
 2:50: I appreciate it. 
 2:52: there's so much there. 
 2:52: I, the thing I'll say because it's there we could, this could be huge just conversation just on that, is what I find is that there's a silence that's happening in relationships. 
 3:06: Women are silent and we're talking about, right, like heteronormative relationships. 
 3:09: Women are silently asking for their desires or their needs to be met. 
 3:14: And men are not hearing them. 
 3:17: And that's, I don't relate to that as anybody's fault. 
 3:20: But the there's a communication breakdown. 
 3:22: So women are having these like subtle, hey, can we go do this thing or I want to do this thing, or they're trying to point out that the men aren't happy or something, you know, there's so many different variations. 
 3:33: And men, we do this thing often where we're just kind of like going through the motions. 
 3:39: We wake up, we go to work, maybe we go work out, we take care of like the things around the house that we need to do, and then we're like, we're done. 
 3:47: And we don't realize the, the kind of silent pain that we're that we're causing in our partners not getting their needs met. 
 3:56: And they're going to keep asking, but less and less and less. 
 3:59: And then eventually, this is kind of what we're talking about. 
 4:02: The woman leaves or threatens to leave or it gets becomes like a dramatic thing and then the husband's like, where did this come from? 
 4:09: Where did this come from? 
 4:09: And it's like, dude, there's been these like subtle bread crumbs and you're not paying attention and it's not your fault per se. 
 4:17: It is. 
 4:18: I mean, it's all our responsibility, but You're missing it. 
 4:21: So can we talk about like, you know, the silent pain that you were mentioning? 
 4:25: I think women feel that, but do men feel that as well, like as they're going through their their day to day, their routine, like is there, I'm so curious in your perspective, like, is there a little voice that's saying like something's off here. 
 4:38: I could be doing more. 
 4:39: There could be something going on here that I'm not listening to. 
 4:42: Yeah, I think there's there's a few different ways to look at this. 
 4:45: I can say from my own. 
 4:46: When I was, I, I used to open and run restaurants and bars for a living, and I was really good at it. 
 4:51: And outside of that I was drinking a lot and I was using all external things to feel better, right? 
 4:57: Buying things to feel good, but my, my, I thought that was normal. 
 5:01: I wasn't aware of anything else. 
 5:02: And I remember this moment. 
 5:05: That my the the woman I was dating at the time said to me, you just don't seem happy. 
 5:11: It's not super, not a dramatic statement, and I, I remember thinking, happy. 
 5:18: Who who's happy? 
 5:20: Like, because that was the, especially in that world that I was in. 
 5:24: Like who was actually happy? 
 5:25: People were happy when they're drunk, when they're getting laid, when they're getting a new job or a new car, going on a vacation, but who was actually happy in their current states like status or state? 
 5:38: And I think that sometimes happens with men is you find there's a, a therapist, his name is Terry Riel, he's a folder. 
 5:46: I don't know if you've heard of him, and he talks about how men don't get depressed, they become alcoholics or they become Addicted to work or porn or something. 
 5:55: I don't think that's 100% true because there are men that are depressed and are dealing with it, but I think it's a, it makes a lot of sense that guys pour themselves into their job. 
 6:06: I know that I've done like when in, in our pregnancy journey that we're on, the harder it is, like, even it's not a bad thing. 
 6:12: It's just I'm like, oh, I can focus on work because I can control that, right? 
 6:17: And that's not a bad one. 
 6:18: I do good work, so it's kind of But men will go to alcohol, they'll go to sports, they'll go to other things to cover up the feet like to push down and cover up the feelings because we were never taught to feel. 
 6:31: So I think we don't understand that when you're bringing a feeling, we don't know what to do with that because we never weren't brought up to to explore that. 
 6:43: It's so interesting because the number, like by far hands down top comment was women will choose happiness over their family, men will choose their family over happiness. 
 6:52: So it's so interesting that you're saying that because when Corin and I saw that, I'm like, that's not our perspective, you know, and that's not the relationship. 
 7:00: We're obviously in a different dynamic, but it's so interesting to see that perspective because there was a lot of men commented on that or, or also said that same thing. 
 7:09: And it speaks to what you're saying. 
 7:11: And I don't, I mean, I think that there's probably there's some truth in everything, right? 
 7:17: I think there's a lot of women out there that are miserable in their lives. 
 7:21: If you look, if we go back in time, people are like, well, if we go to traditional conservative values, things were better then. 
 7:28: No, they weren't. 
 7:29: Women were super depressed back in the day. 
 7:31: They're suppressed. 
 7:34: They were drinking. 
 7:34: They were on also on women were super unhappy. 
 7:38: So the, the thing that I think happened was we like America did a great job in, in supporting women to have opportunity. 
 7:46: We created a thing where women now you, the idea is like as a little girl, you could be whatever you wanted. 
 7:51: And I think so we, we kind of like said, all right, the women, let's like support you and having like this freedom to create careers and lives and, and express yourselves more without, you know, and not having everything be suppressed and and kind of got stuck. 
 8:05: Yeah, what happened to men. 
 8:06: Yeah. 
 8:06: Well, I think that's the thing. 
 8:09: Nothing happened, right? 
 8:10: But the, if we think of it like a scale, one side can't, they need to like kind of scales have to like kind of balance together, right? 
 8:17: But one side kind of went up and the other one just stayed still. 
 8:21: And I think that that's where the big, to me, that's where the big breakdown happened is men stayed still and now we're like what? 
 8:28: 50 years post like feminism like beginning, I guess. 
 8:32: I'm not an expert on those dates, so don't quote me on that. 
 8:37: but, Men stayed still for the most part, and then women are doing all these things that we used to do. 
 8:45: And then we're like, well, now I don't need to be the provider. 
 8:49: I don't actually necessarily need to even be the protector because. 
 8:53: What am I like for the most part, yeah, and so protector, provider, procreator are like three traditional roles of of all of us, you don't even need a man to get pregnant. 
 9:04: Yeah, that's true. 
 9:05: So, so the way, right, so the way I, I view this and the way I talk about it with men is Imagine like a long buffet. 
 9:15: Men have been eating at 3 or 4 items for their whole life, and they're like, I like these items, they're comfortable, they're good. 
 9:21: And maybe they like venture one or two chafing dishes over. 
 9:25: Women, when feminism happened, we were like, you can eat at the whole buffet. 
 9:29: And what we didn't realize is the buffet is actually endless. 
 9:32: It's infinite. 
 9:34: And my desire is to, how do we get men to see that they can also eat at the whole buffet that if a man is like, I met a man recently who's this big, like, like he's a man, a masculine dude, goes to the gym all the time. 
 9:47: He also was a ballet dancer. 
 9:49: And when he told me that I was like, Whoa, that would have been the last thing, right? 
 9:54: And he was like, I, because when he was a kid, he did ballet for that's what his mom put him in, but then he's, and so he still loves that thing, but in the world that's not acceptable. 
 10:03: You know, I walk into like a crystal store, a spiritual store, and they people look at me like, can I help you? 
 10:09: Why? 
 10:09: Because like I don't fit the like what I love what you're supposed to be. 
 10:12: Yeah. 
 10:15: So I'm curious. 
 10:15: I want to bring this back to like, how can women support men and eating the full buffet. 
 10:19: , I think we, I think we have to. 
 10:26: Be gentle with men. 
 10:28: We have to like be gentle at first and go slow because they're, they're not, we're just not practiced in it. 
 10:37: I think the the I can tell you more on what not to do than what to do, because I think that what, what people are doing isn't working is when women are saying you should go do this, you need to go to therapy, you need to go to a coach, you're unhappy, you need to do that, like telling a man what to do. 
 10:54: Doesn't work. 
 10:55: So I, I think the we'll, we will literally push against. 
 11:04: That thing, excuse me, I noticed even, even as a man, like I can't help a man by telling him what to do. 
 11:11: what I have to do is figure out what he wants. 
 11:14: So if I meet a guy or you know, if you're a woman and you're, you have a, and you know he wants more friends like lean into that thing. 
 11:24: Hey, I heard about this group where there's guys hanging out, if you know a guy, he wants more money, right? 
 11:32: I know this community where they're like working with guys to make more, like lean into the thing that they want and just share and then like let it go. 
 11:41: I think that's the thing that happens is we We keep like picking at it and then we end up getting further from the thing that we want. 
 11:50: I can attest to this. 
 11:51: I can totally agree with this, even with Nick, you know, I was just telling a friend the other day. 
 11:54: I was telling her I was like, you know, the the more that I go in and fix and try and solve the problem, whatever the thing is, the further away he wants to like do it. 
 12:03: But every time that I let it become his idea on his own time, he ends up getting to the thing eventually. 
 12:09: And so I've had to learn like how do I trust his pace. 
 12:12: It's not my pace. 
 12:13: It's his pace. 
 12:15: And that's really hard for us, I think sometimes as women because at least I, we see things in a different way. 
 12:20: And so how do you, I'm always struggling with like how do I express what's true for me and what I see without turning them off or pushing them further away. 
 12:31: And you know, I've learned to talk about it in the sense of like this is my experience. 
 12:36: It doesn't have to be yours. 
 12:37: I'm just sharing mine, but also not fixing it or making it his thing that he has to do. 
 12:42: Yeah, I think that's I think that's good I think. 
 12:46: Offering gentle suggestions, asking questions, but also knowing It's hard for us to sit if, if it's hard to actually sit like this as men and have a conversation. 
 13:01: We don't do this. 
 13:03: We fish and stand next to each other. 
 13:06: We watch a game and stand next to each other. 
 13:08: We, We would have been hunting, right? 
 13:12: We, the women would have been traditionally sitting in a circle with kids weaving baskets, doing things, whatever. 
 13:19: Men would have been out, right, hunting, walking, moving, building something, and I think, you know, when, when Evan, my wife, like asks, wants to sit down and talk about something, it's like I'm like oh no it's like, oh, I just like all of a sudden all my like little boy stuff comes up. 
 13:37: But if we go for a walk and have the same conversation, it's so much easier. 
 13:41: Same thing with and in the car, you know, the car is such a great place because it's like they're focused on something else but also talking on whatever is quote unquote the hard conversation. 
 13:51: It's interesting because I think men and Women, especially after COVID in 2020, like we all realize how important community is and there's this drive towards community again, but I think it's interesting because it sounds like you're saying men do community well when they're moving towards a common goal, and women do community when it's just like connection. 
 14:10: And so women are coming together to connect and men are coming to work towards something together. 
 14:15: Does that feel accurate? 
 14:16: Like I think it's great. 
 14:17: Yeah, I've never, I haven't thought of it or heard it like that. 
 14:20: I think that's really brilliant. 
 14:22: I think. 
 14:23: And I guess you could speak to more of the women. 
 14:25: I think men are skeptical too. 
 14:27: I can't speak if women are as skeptical. 
 14:30: We're being sold nonstop all the time, right? 
 14:33: Especially now. 
 14:34: We had a guy at the one of the last retreats we did who said at some point he was like pretty, he was frustrated. 
 14:41: We had, he had opened up a lot and he was like looking within and he was getting mad at the experience he was having with himself, which is great in a way. 
 14:49: And he says at one point, this is bullshit. 
 14:53: You guys, you guys are just selling me something so like I have to keep paying to be in this community. 
 15:00: And before we could even respond, one of the other men who'd who's been around for a while was like, that's not true. 
 15:05: They do this for free and this for free, and this for free. 
 15:08: And I say that because I think we If we're building a community, we do have to have things that that don't cost money. 
 15:18: Because if you're, if you have to, you know, pay to be in the community, it's not a community right now we're in a transaction. 
 15:25: and I, so I say all this because I think there's a lot of skepticalness because we're saying we're building this community, but it's really a transactional relationship. 
 15:34: And so I think, I think you can have both, right? 
 15:36: We can build, you guys have a community like you do walks and things like that. 
 15:39: People don't have to pay to do that, right? 
 15:41: So you can build that. 
 15:42: But then let's say you do a retreat. 
 15:44: Well, they have to pay to do that because there's room and board and and all this stuff. 
 15:48: So I think it's important that we Acknowledge that and we're not saying, hey, we're building this community and then it's a there's a paywall because it's not, right? 
 15:58: I think men are really really feeling that. 
 16:04: but I I really like what you're saying. 
 16:05: I think men are, it's really good for men. 
 16:08: To have a goal or something they're moving towards, I struggle with playing games for fun because I'm like, why are we doing this? 
 16:19: He's like, if I start playing a game, I'm starting to get competitive and then the whole thing comes out of fun. 
 16:23: He's like, I just won't have fun. 
 16:25: I'll be competitive. 
 16:27: It's a whole thing for him because he's like, I need to find things that are fun. 
 16:31: And then if I have more fun. 
 16:32: He's always saying that I'm like, but you turn everything into work. 
 16:35: And then if you, if I get if I like try to make it fun by kind of like talking shit or like poking at people, then people think they're like, oh, he's like so intense he can't like lose he's and I'm like, I'm like, no, I'm, I'm trying to find a way to play here and I think that's also a difference is. 
 16:55: When we were little kids, again, I can only speak for for boys, is we were like poking at each other. 
 17:02: We were like wrestling, we're We're being competitive and that part of that is like, pushing each other around whether it's like physically or verbally and then we grow up and we can't always do that and that's taken away. 
 17:17: So now I'm in this space and we're supposed to be playing and I'm like, OK, we're not physical. 
 17:22: I'm not able to kind of, yeah, and now I'm like I don't really know what am I supposed to do here, you know, if you think like men when they're playing video games, it's kind of the same thing, and so I think like these, there's nothing wrong with any of us, right? 
 17:40: We're just looking at how we've evolved and it's like it doesn't work because we were brought up so different. 
 17:48: So what's the vision? 
 17:49: What's like the art of the possibility? 
 17:52: Like if you know if there's this weird in between that you're talking about right now and I like I understand like that's for you, but like what's, I wanna know like what's possible too. 
 18:00: Yeah, well, I think we have to like relearn and that that is not done overnight, right? 
 18:06: We do, We do an exercise at one of our retreats where well we weave play into a few other exercises so we weave play into our fitness because for so many guys fitness is a punishment. 
 18:19: I like punish my body to like get it so it's good or it's like a thing I just have to do or it's a thing I don't wanna do. 
 18:25: So what if we can make it more fun? 
 18:27: We have another activity where we where we kind of create like role playing or. 
 18:33: , I'm like blanking on the word. 
 18:36: What's it called when you're like acting, but there's no script or like improv thank you, thank you. 
 18:42: we've created like some of these activities to support men in practicing having fun without an agenda or a goal. 
 18:49: And when, when they're, I think when we're safe and we can, we're comfortable, we can do that. 
 18:54: And the feedback we keep getting is like more play. 
 18:57: So we're wanting it, right? 
 18:58: That like little boy part of us really wants it and finding ways to do it is. 
 19:05: Is the work and then to practice to like do that, bring that back home and weave it into other things so you can weave play into and I was weaving play into like my taxes this year. 
 19:19: I was like reconciling my books having so much fun with numbers. 
 19:24: No, I like, I hate this. 
 19:26: It's like it was, but I had this huge problem with my, with my, my CPA. 
 19:31: There was a huge issue. 
 19:32: My CPA is like, you need to go through your QuickBooks and fix all this. 
 19:35: And I'm like, this is my nightmare. 
 19:37: This is the worst. 
 19:38: I'd rather just like throw it away and just be like, we'll have a bigger problem later, but I'm like, all right, I gotta do this. 
 19:43: And so I I put music up like pretty loud and I have like a walking desk and I was like walking while I was doing it and I noticed that I was in this rhythm whereas like things were getting checked off. 
 19:55: I was like, oh fuck, all right, good. 
 19:57: I got that one without a mistake like move that. 
 19:59: And all of a sudden I felt like I was kind of playing a game and I was like, can I get 2 in a row with no mistakes, 3 in a row. 
 20:08: And then all of a sudden, look, I'd rather be doing something else, don't get me wrong but all of a sudden I noticed like an hour went by. 
 20:16: And I was OK. 
 20:17: I wasn't pissed off. 
 20:18: I wasn't frustrated. 
 20:19: I had kind of gamified this thing, but I don't know that I even would have been able to do that if I hadn't done all this work with men where we're learning how to play and bring play into other things. 
 20:30: So I think, yeah, we just got to practice, You know, I say to Evan when we're playing games, like, I'm not upset, like you gotta let me, you kinda gotta let me poke. 
 20:41: And so she's relaxed. 
 20:44: So when I like win and I like, you know, jump up and do a dramatic dance, it's like I hate you all. 
 20:50: I just crushed you that now it's like funny versus whatever. 
 20:55: Yeah, when you just said that kind of brought me back to I don't know like a scene of like kids playing like tiny kids like I would like, you're out, you know what I mean and like we don't really do that anymore. 
 21:09: It's so interesting even like thinking about it now like if if I was in a in a room of people and someone comes and calls me a loser, I'd be like, why are you being so fucking rude? 
 21:16: But you're talking about the play, which I love that so much. 
 21:19: , one thing I want to bring it back to another, another comment that came up on the real specifically, and I would love to ask you is that women just get married and so that they can get a divorce and take all your money. 
 21:33: Yeah, that was huge. 
 21:34: That's probably the actually that might be the number one comment and OK, well do leave without the house, leave without the kids, leave without the car. 
 21:42: Leave without the 401k. 
 21:43: I'm like, Who are you talking to? 
 21:45: Yeah, and what I think was interesting in that is like I think there are women out there that, I mean, what's hard, there's truth to both sides, right, to what you were saying like there are women out there that probably do do that, can do that, right? 
 21:55: They married a very rich man and they walk away with a lot of money and that's like their intention in life. 
 21:58: But I don't think I'm gonna, I'm gonna pray and hold the vision that 80% of the marriages are not like that. 
 22:04: But I'm so curious, like, where is that wound coming from? 
 22:08: And do you have an idea or comment to that? 
 22:12: Most households are fatherless, not motherless. 
 22:17: So it's completely just factually untrue. 
 22:21: So. 
 22:23: You know, the biggest. 
 22:25: I, I don't know the exact like stats here, but I, but they're dramatic and you can look them up. 
 22:29: When a, when a little girl doesn't have a like a father in the home, she's still able to successfully go on and like live her life like from an education job. 
 22:40: When a little boy doesn't have a father in the home, they're like 60% more likely to become like suicidal or struggle with their, their education. 
 22:48: again, I'm not, don't quote those numbers, but like you can look them up there, it's dramatically different. 
 22:53: And more homes do not have fathers. 
 22:57: It's super rare when you hear somebody's like, I was raised by just my dad. 
 23:00: Yeah, like my mom. 
 23:01: That's not a norm. 
 23:04: So, so one is that is like that's nonsense. 
 23:08: Homes are dads are the ones who are not there. 
 23:10: It's true. 
 23:10: I mean women complain so much about the mental load, you know, women are the ones taking care of the family. 
 23:15: They're the ones thinking about things while men are going in and out of the house working, providing, but they're not. 
 23:20: They're not integrated with the kids and, and right, we're just, we're, this is not the truth, right? 
 23:25: There's plenty of greats, there's plenty of great moms, but if we just look at numbers, more people are being raised by mothers than they are by fathers like in a substantially larger gap. 
 23:37: the other thing is Who are the people that are making these comments? 
 23:43: Cause I'm like, my, my hunch first of all is like, do you have money that somebody did this happen to you? 
 23:50: I, I like don't buy. 
 23:54: I, I, I don't buy that there's all these men that are sitting on the internet commenting and they're telling this truth. 
 24:01: It feels like men who are sitting in their mom's basement and hating women and making these comments about anti-women, which This is like a slippery slope because if you go down that road, the these, there's a lot of men. 
 24:17: There's a lot of lonely men. 
 24:18: I mean, there is like a lot of articles lately have been written about the loneliness epidemic of men. 
 24:23: And it's interesting because I think there are lonely women again, there's two sides to everything, but I feel like women, because speaking back to what you were saying about this empowerment that we received, there is like a status one. 
 24:36: You know, women are not driven by sex. 
 24:38: And so, like the older you get, the less you care about sex as a woman, typically. 
 24:43: And I think you are able to find more completion in the self, like more confidence. 
 24:48: You don't necessarily feel like you need a partner, and, unless you're wanting a family or things like that. 
 24:54: But like, I think as you get older as a woman, you're like, oh, I could do this on my own, like especially. 
 24:57: If your partner's not showing up. 
 24:59: Yeah, I mean, I've heard that comment multiple times. 
 25:01: They're like, why, why am I even in a relationship? 
 25:04: He's not helping me with anything. 
 25:06: Like he's not contributing either to the house. 
 25:08: Like I could do this by myself, especially with women, and it's a lot of women that listen to our podcast is like they're really high achievers, they're highly ambitious. 
 25:15: Some of them are the breadwinners and they're like at that point. 
 25:19: What's the point? 
 25:20: And I think they're coming from like a wounded place. 
 25:23: There's a lot of resentment and frustration underneath those comments, but it is starting to, you can see the theme like we're trying to talk generic. 
 25:30: We're not like pointing fingers. 
 25:31: I'm just saying like generically this is the themes that are starting to come up. 
 25:35: Well, there's there's some things about this that are really prevalent in our society. 
 25:39: There's, they talk about how like 80% of women want like 20% of the men and like they're they're financially successful or they're like good looking that the, the, and that is like 20 to 10% of men. 
 26:02: And so that most women are wanting the small percentage of men and So there's a big backlash of men who feel like they don't fit that. 
 26:12: have you seen the Netflix show Adolescence? 
 26:15: This is like the it's kind of the theme of this. 
 26:17: I haven't even seen the whole thing, but in the beginning episodes, it's like about a 13 year old boy who is accused of like killing a little girl in his like class and it starts to unravel that she's calling him an incel and that the other kids in the class are like, yeah, cause like all the girls only want like one of the guys. 
 26:35: And I think that, you know, if we look at our, the trajectory of our world, this wasn't like this is a multitude of things that has created this, this problem. 
 26:47: You know, back in the day, we would have lived in a village and we all would have just been like matched up and that would have been the end of it. 
 26:53: Yeah. 
 26:53: And if your marriage sucked, it sucked, right? 
 26:56: Like it was just the way it was. 
 26:57: And it's only in the last maybe like 100 years or less. 
 27:02: That people would leave where they kind of like leave their communities, go to new places, that you would date people and like be like, oh, I don't like this one like this. 
 27:11: And now we're just over here scrolling, scrolling and what, and all the things that have happened in like the last 100 years have us focused on money and looks. 
 27:20: It's true. 
 27:21: Well, I love what Nick said. 
 27:23: He, he made a comment like, you weren't supposed to see this many women as men either. 
 27:27: You weren't supposed to be exposed to thousands and thousands and thousands of women. 
 27:31: You were, you found your person and that's who you were with. 
 27:34: And like you said, you're in this small town like you don't know what else is out there in the world. 
 27:37: So I feel like we are all overexposed to all of us are overexposed to just, I mean we weren't even supposed to see ourselves as much as we see ourselves like in the mirror and photos and on your cameras, yeah. 
 27:50: Yeah, so this, this like over hyper focused on looks and money. 
 27:56: Has put us now in a place where if you don't have money and you or you're not good looking, you're at a huge disadvantage, not, not in reality, but perceived perceived reality because right, there's plenty of people that are not good looking that figure out and there's plenty of people that don't have money that have great lives. 
 28:15: So, but in our capitalistic world, especially on, on phones and media, you're at a great disadvantage. 
 28:22: And I mean we had a guy, we had a guy who came to one of our retreats once who was like, I can't trust you because you're good looking. 
 28:30: And his breakthrough was he was like, whoa, I can trust you. 
 28:34: It wasn't right. 
 28:35: He created this thing of his narrative was like he looked at me and put and put me in a box because of how I looked when it wasn't obviously it had nothing to do with me, right? 
 28:45: This is his relationship to himself and how he fits in. 
 28:49: And I think men more. 
 28:52: You know, I think it's really hard for women to, with the media and like looks and stuff like that, right? 
 28:57: But, and I think men are doing this like silently, we size each other up. 
 29:01: So men walk into rooms and they're like, that guy's a threat, or I can ignore that guy or that guy can help me. 
 29:08: But all that does is create divides. 
 29:11: I think about how many men I've become friends with that I would have written off 10 years ago in my, my old ways. 
 29:17: I would have never given them a chance because I would have made up. 
 29:19: Like he's irrelevant or he's a threat. 
 29:22: I don't want to hang out with that guy because he's, he could like take the, he could get the girl I want. 
 29:26: Oh my gosh, you're saying, I feel like it's like high school walking down the like the the aisles or whatever and like the lockers are there and things whatever and like, you know, I can just see someone that is the most good looking is kind of a dick to everyone kind of act like he owns it and then, you know, the other people that are quote unquote not good looking or like the one or the star of the high school season, whatever. 
 29:47: You know, I get where that trust can come from, or that lack of trust can come from. 
 29:51: And we're all living. 
 29:53: If you haven't actually like worked on yourself, we're living 100%. 
 30:00: Our whole reality is totally formed. 
 30:01: So yeah, we're living we are living high we're all high school students living in these adult bodies. 
 30:08: And the one thing I want to say too to just bring it back like what you're experiencing, I think women experience that as well. 
 30:13: And something that we shared in an earlier episode is like trying to say that I know there's just like women versus men thing, like men don't see things one way and women see one thing. 
 30:22: There's a lot of commonalities and like what I've noticed as a woman in a relationship with a man is like instead of Me being like I'm the only one experiencing this is like being able to have that gentle touch or that gentle acknowledgement like tell me what's going on like, and when he shares something that I'm like, oh, I experienced that too. 
 30:40: It allows us to get closer versus me seeing as like they're different and like yes, we might men might move slower in this conversation. 
 30:49: However, at the end of the day, I think we're having similar experiences because women do walk in a room and they're like, well, she's beautiful. 
 30:55: I might not be able to trust her. 
 30:56: Is she nice? 
 30:56: Is she not nice? 
 30:58: if anything, we deal with like mean girls or competitiveness. 
 31:02: Like there's a lot of that. 
 31:03: It's like, well, I have all the things. 
 31:05: Do you have all the things like I got Botox. 
 31:08: I didn't get Botox, you know, we don't do any of that, but there is that in this society. 
 31:12: So I just wanted to like bring that back to women. 
 31:15: Yeah, I, I think there's, I, I think I agree with you. 
 31:17: I think there's more commonalities. 
 31:20: They're just like different flavors of the same thing. 
 31:23: What I wanted to speak to because you know, we've, we, you've been touching on alchemy of men, and you've created this space to invite men in because one thing I do think women have had permission to do in the last decade is really go inwards. 
 31:35: And heal the high school version of ourselves, like heal the emotional world and become more emotionally mature. 
 31:42: And I, I think there's an invitation and women are asking men to come with them to that space and that's something beautiful that you do. 
 31:50: but how can Like, please speak a little bit to your retreats and what you do, but also like how can men be invited into that? 
 31:57: Because I think that the more we heal our emotional selves, like, and our ability to understand that everything is a mirror, it's all a reflection for us to like look within. 
 32:07: I think the world would be a very different place. 
 32:09: And so I think it's time for men to be more invited into that space. 
 32:13: So can you speak to that a little bit? 
 32:14: Yeah, jewelry that I get every day all the time. 
 32:31: So thank you. 
 32:32: Oh that's awesome. 
 32:36: You know, we, I think, I think. 
 32:39: Men, Well, let me say this. 
 32:43: Alchemy of Men was created because we were looking for something that we couldn't find. 
 32:48: That me and my co-founder, Bob, we knew each other but we weren't close. 
 32:53: He was, he was doing his thing in Chicago. 
 32:55: I was here in San Diego and I noticed that, man, I'd done all this personal development work over like 7 years and there were still gaps. 
 33:05: I'd still, I could be vulnerable in a room full of men and women. 
 33:09: I could be vulnerable with women. 
 33:11: I could be strong, and I could like navigate the whole, that whole buffet that we're talking about. 
 33:17: But if you dropped me back with like my boys or like just regular guys, I kind of re-armoured up. 
 33:25: And I noticed that with my brother or my dad, I still would sometimes revert back to my old ways. 
 33:30: And nothing wrong with my old ways. 
 33:32: I was just like wanting to be, I didn't like who I was. 
 33:35: I wasn't enjoying my life, my life wasn't working. 
 33:38: So instead of trying to change my life, I changed me and then my life changed. 
 33:42: And I realized, OK, there's something here. 
 33:46: Why am I, why does this keep reverting with men? 
 33:49: So I started looking into like, I need to go explore this with men. 
 33:52: And I think something that we don't talk about is, we know that a man is like the greatest threat to a woman, but we don't think about that a man is also the greatest threat to the to a man. 
 34:04: That our wounds, our traumas, our pain were often caused at the hands of another man. 
 34:11: And we, for us to get right with ourselves and get right with other men, we have to go back to that source. 
 34:19: We have to go heal that thing within us with the place that it was damaged. 
 34:25: And When I looked out at the world of like, where can I do this, I was seeing predominantly two things. 
 34:33: One, which was men being like, oh, you need to be like stronger and more masculine and you need to be able to kick some ass and like just like very like marine style, which is great for some guys. 
 34:45: Some guys are very like scared of the world and they do need that. 
 34:49: I wasn't one of those guys. 
 34:51: And then the other side was I literally saw a photo of two men naked in a puddle of mud hugging and crying, and it was the work was like we need to be more like women, we need to be softer and more feminine and more gentle and strong men are the problem. 
 35:04: And I was like, well, that's not it either. 
 35:06: That's just the opposite side. 
 35:08: Where's the space where I can have all of that and more, and we couldn't find that. 
 35:14: So we created Alchemy Meez. 
 35:17: We don't need any more men telling us how to be men. 
 35:21: We need more more spaces where men can come together and figure out who they want to be based on the life they want to live. 
 35:28: So one of our like primary questions is, hey, when at the end of your life or when you're 70 or whatever, like, who do you want, who do you want to see yourself as? 
 35:37: Who do you want to be at that point? 
 35:38: Who do you want your, your children, your family, your community to view you as? 
 35:43: And then we work backwards. 
 35:45: Cause I think what most people are doing is like what do you want? 
 35:47: And then it's like stuff and things. 
 35:49: So then you get all this life and then you're like, wow, I hate myself and I hate my life and everything sucks. 
 35:55: But if you create the version of who you wanna be. 
 35:58: And then you start living into that man every day little by little. 
 36:02: Well, the stuff you do and accumulate will be in alignment and your life, and if you become that man, you'll be satisfied and if you have stuff, great. 
 36:12: But if you become that man with all the stuff, you'll still be that well that's what I wanted. 
 36:17: and so that's what we've created. 
 36:19: And so in that model, we can't, you know, if we have 10 men here, I can't say this is how you're supposed to be or you're supposed to be. 
 36:26: Right? 
 36:26: You get to be, you get to decide who you want to become, and then we support you to become that. 
 36:32: And I think the magic when you have a community of men is For some reason, the like walls come down actually easier because it only takes one guy to, it's, it's crazy because it's often the like most badass dude. 
 36:49: The dude who walks in and looks like he's gonna like be a problem is like the dude who starts crying first or shares like what happened to him in his life that was really screwed up. 
 37:00: And then all these other men suddenly are like, oh it's safe. 
 37:04: I can, and I don't know why. 
 37:06: You know it, but it's how it works, so. 
 37:10: Yeah, I think men need to go be, I, I think like things like Landmark and places are great, but like you need to go, we need to go be with men. 
 37:18: If we're not doing the work with men, there's gonna be a piece missing. 
 37:24: I'm try and put myself in a position of like men objections, you know, like what do they think about? 
 37:30: So like the biggest thing that comes to me is like, you know, a lot of men to your point, are thinking about like I got to put all my time into making money, to providing, to focus on the time. 
 37:38: I don't have time for this. 
 37:40: I think that's, I think I'm really curious actually now I'm like as I'm processing this out loud, how old are the men that are coming to, do you have like a range as to like the kind of the age that men are coming to? 
 37:50: So we, the youngest has been like 24 and the oldest has been 82. 
 37:58: That's, yeah, it was really cool to see an 82 year old man with mostly 40-somethings like so that the average age though, I would say is late 20s to like 50. 
 38:08: It's a kind of a big range, right? 
 38:09: It's like a 25 year gap ish, but It there's sort of two things that we see in there. 
 38:15: One is the guys who are in their late 20s or early 30s that are feeling really stuck and confused. 
 38:21: Often. 
 38:23: Their dads weren't present, whether it be physically present or emotionally present. 
 38:28: So they've become, they've gotten to this point where they're almost ready to like start families or create something and they're like, I don't know what it means to be a man. 
 38:39: And again, not that I'm here to tell you, but we need to figure this out together because what it means to be a man is up to you to decide. 
 38:46: And they're looking for someone to tell them and and that's, yeah. 
 38:49: And so those that younger group of guys is looking for clarity, they're looking for direction, And I think they're looking for support from guys that are like a little bit older that they feel like they can trust, that aren't gonna again like manipulate them into something but just support them in becoming who they want to be. 
 39:09: And then there's the guys on the other side of that, that are in their 40s to, you know, 50 that I think. 
 39:19: I like life is they, they have families, they, they're struggling with the life that they've created. 
 39:28: Their marriage isn't working, They're not, they're working too much. 
 39:33: They're not seeing their kids as much as they want to. 
 39:35: A lot of like health stuff for those guys, they're not in shape or taking care of themselves. 
 39:40: And it's either that they're so overwhelmed with everything, they they're, it's like they have too many balls that are being juggled and so they're all falling on the ground, or they're, they're like crushing it in the workspace, but everything else is not working. 
 39:54: And those guys, them have again, them same thing like deciding. 
 40:00: Where do they want to put their anchor down as the man they want to be and then retooling their life around that because often they're like, wow, my family is the only thing that I actually care about. 
 40:10: And it's the thing that I'm like giving the least amount of my energy to. 
 40:13: Well, that doesn't make sense. 
 40:15: I'm so glad I asked that question because I was going back between both of those ages in my mind. 
 40:19: I was like, a lot of older men, you know, get to the point where they're like, OK, I need to go find something. 
 40:24: Maybe they have the job already or whatever, all the balls are falling down. 
 40:27: Or there's also this decade of men that I think is also really cool that are asking the questions of what it means to be a man really early. 
 40:34: And it's really beautiful to witness that. 
 40:36: And I think that's, I just wanted to highlight that there's room for both. 
 40:40: And there's so much more too, right? 
 40:42: There's guys that just come for community. 
 40:45: That's it. 
 40:46: They're literally like, I want more male friends and I don't know how to find. 
 40:51: Those guys and whatever my situation is, right? 
 40:54: some of them are like in our world now, a lot of people like we don't, we're not in offices, right? 
 40:58: We don't, but a lot of times with the places we go, we don't, guys don't know how to connect. 
 41:03: It's a really funny at almost every retreat this conversation comes up where a guy is like, how do you make friends? 
 41:09: And I'm like, you guys aren't gonna like this, but it's so easy. 
 41:13: And they're like, and, and they're like, what do you mean? 
 41:15: And I'm like, so it's kind of, it's, it's a little bit of a formula and it's super simple, but it, it works and it's not in it's totally authentic. 
 41:23: It's, you just have to apply yourself to this model. 
 41:26: So we're out, let's say we're all out in the world. 
 41:30: And there's like, we interact with some other dude in some way and I'm like I have this sense like I could be friends with him, right? 
 41:37: Maybe, right? 
 41:37: I like we know that when we like connect with people, right? 
 41:40: We have this like, or I'd like to be friends with that feels like my people. 
 41:45: Most of us won't do anything, right? 
 41:46: Just like dating. 
 41:47: We're just like hoping that they're gonna like walk up to us and handle it all, right? 
 41:51: Most people are not. 
 41:52: But if you are willing to get out of your comfort zone and go engage that person. 
 41:57: It my kind of my formula is find something about that person that you can compliment. 
 42:06: Dude, I love your Jordans. 
 42:08: Like I, I also wear what Jordans are, right? 
 42:11: Or, you know, it could be something as simple as that. 
 42:14: It could be, dude, you just seem like a cool guy, we should like hang out, grab coffee or something. 
 42:21: You're, you're basically asking them on a date. 
 42:24: and I think, and that's the part that guys don't like is they're like, wait, you literally walk up to guys and, and I'm like, yeah, I don't like walk across a room with no interaction, but in In the social settings, I, I meet people. 
 42:38: I actually just did this yesterday. 
 42:39: I met a guy at a networking group and I DM'ed him today and I was like, hey man, it was really cool to meet you. 
 42:44: Your, your story is super interesting, interesting. 
 42:47: I'd love to grab coffee or like grab lunch at some point. 
 42:50: I will reflect this back to you. 
 42:52: Nick has complimented you on that many times. 
 42:54: He's like Alex is so good at just like starting conversation, having the soft skills. 
 42:59: He's like, I admire that about him. 
 43:01: Yeah, I had to tell you that because you're saying, I was like, Nick has reflected back. 
 43:04: He's like he's just so good at it. 
 43:06: And it's, and look, I say this, it has to be genuine. 
 43:09: Yeah, totally. 
 43:10: It doesn't, if you're like, I can get it. 
 43:13: I know I've been choked I can be honest, I've been here too where I'm like, oh, this guy could be like really good for my business or something. 
 43:19: It doesn't work. 
 43:19: Yeah, you can feel the difference. 
 43:22: And so really finding that that was the funny thing is this was my rule in dating when I was single too was like I had to, if I couldn't figure out something that I like liked. 
 43:32: Then I like kind of couldn't talk to you because I didn't want to be the guy who would just hit on everyone who was like playing for numbers. 
 43:38: I wanted to kind of be intentional. 
 43:41: So I was like, oh I have to figure out something I like appreciate or I like so I can like go, that's my That was like my entryway. 
 43:47: So it was, it was always like really genuine. 
 43:48: So thanks Nick. 
 43:49: This is really good. 
 43:52: You can too. 
 43:53: I mean it's the same. 
 43:54: That's how we became friends. 
 43:58: Actually thanks to Evan. 
 43:58: , but yeah, she's like, I like you. 
 44:00: You wanna get coffee? 
 44:01: I'm like, OK, I've always been really, I've always been really comfortable in that. 
 44:05: I'm like, yeah, let's be friends. 
 44:06: If I, if there's an energy there, I'll listen to it. 
 44:09: If it's not there, then I'll also be like, OK, it's not there. 
 44:12: But I'm also not scared to like, oh, are they gonna have reject me or like. 
 44:16: Are they gonna be weird if I like comment on them and like reach out to them about having coffee? 
 44:20: I'm like, if the energy isn't there then like they're not meant for me and that's totally OK, but most of the times, like if I feel the energy is there, they feel it too, and you can, it's like, well, thank you so much for reaching out. 
 44:31: All my friends Rochelle slid into my DMs like I think we just got to listen to that intuition of like, oh, there's something here, you know and and are they the kind of people. 
 44:41: That that align with the kind of person you want to be, right? 
 44:45: So the guy that I used to be. 
 44:48: Would have been a jerk about this because I would have been like, what the what the fuck like why is this guy like sliding into my DMs like what, right? 
 44:55: But I wasn't cool. 
 44:56: I wasn't good with me, right? 
 44:58: I was super judgmental about myself inside like I was an asshole on the outside because I was an asshole on the inside. 
 45:05: I mean that is what judgment is when we're judging someone, we're just judging. 
 45:09: They're reflecting something we don't want to see or can't see. 
 45:12: I mean, I think it's interesting bringing a full circle too is maybe for men it's harder as well because there is that competitive nature. 
 45:18: So when you're reaching out, it's such a vulnerable ask because if they say no, it's like you lost, you're a loser, you know, when really it's what to Karina's point is like, it's just not for you. 
 45:27: That person's not actually for you. 
 45:29: Yeah, we're also not, this is, this is a whole another piece, but We've become a society that like avoids failure and rejection. 
 45:39: We don't, we don't think about that that's where we grow the most. 
 45:43: That's what any really highly successful person will tell you is they're really good at failing and losing. 
 45:49: And like I think you just weed out what's for you and what's not for you. 
 45:53: I think it's better to move forward and like weed out, OK, this person is for me, this isn't for me. 
 45:57: Great, that's awesome. 
 45:58: I'm gonna find the person that's for me. 
 46:00: that's a different mindset than like, oh, I'm scared, you know, and it's OK to be scared too, right? 
 46:05: Like I think I was. 
 46:07: The last time I spoke in front of a room of people, I was sitting waiting for my to be like called up and Evan was there and she was sitting next to me and I was like, this is so crazy. 
 46:17: I'm like so nervous. 
 46:19: And she's like, you seem fine. 
 46:19: I was like, yeah, but inside I'm like feeling very nervous and I try to like, I'm like also excited is it nerves, is it excitement and As soon as I, they were like, OK, you know, they handed me the mic. 
 46:30: I was calm as can be. 
 46:32: And I know and I was thinking about this after that this is actually a great place to live. 
 46:37: This makes life feel exciting. 
 46:39: That right, I'm actually feeling something. 
 46:42: The problem that we have is like we don't want to feel we're like so, yeah, and if we can embrace like, oh my God, I like feeling something right now. 
 46:51: Yeah, and I'm just not used to feeling this alive because I'm so dull. 
 46:55: I think this is why I just had this realization recently. 
 46:58: This is why guys love sports. 
 47:00: Because they feel something. 
 47:01: Think about a guy who you never see any expression from will be like jumping off his couch and like clapping and cheering. 
 47:08: He's, he doesn't realize how good that feels. 
 47:11: And then when his team is not doing well, he's like tight, he's tense, he's feeling something also, but the depth to which he feels both the the depth to which he can feel the, the stress, the fear is the depth to which he can feel the excitement. 
 47:25: And I think in a way. 
 47:27: It's a place where guys don't realize they're getting their feeling needs met because it's like masked in this competition. 
 47:36: but for me what it's had me do is it's realized like, wait, I really do like to feel because like that's that that way that it feels when my team is winning feels so I want to feel like that why can't I feel like that all the time? 
 47:48: I can, but that means I also have to feel the other side too. 
 47:53: Yeah, the nervous, the all the feelings. 
 47:56: , my last, my last two more questions for you. 
 48:00: one last question just to like wrap things up. 
 48:02: Is there any message that you have for men that you feel called to share? 
 48:05: Anything else? 
 48:08: Do you think men really need to hear, or women with men will give the option. 
 48:12: , I think this is such a, it's so I feel it's like a lot of pressure, I think we've found ourselves in a time where we're obsessed with our stories. 
 48:29: Like we go sit in therapy and tell our stories over and over again and we sit with our friends and tell our stories. 
 48:35: And I think we unconsciously become more committed to our stories than the things that we actually want. 
 48:41: And so if you're a man or you're a woman or you're whoever, like, are you more committed to telling your story or having a different life? 
 48:49: And that's what is actually possible. 
 48:53: And so find ways, whether they be through retreats or listening to podcasts or coaches or therapists or whatever that are that are forcing you out of your stories and into becoming the person you want to be so you can have the life that you want to have. 
 49:08: We do this. 
 49:09: That's a thing. 
 49:18: I mean, I think I only got one bus, but that was like a slam dunk. 
 49:19: Yeah, I was gonna say too, I think that, you know, I've been thinking about this a lot is like there's only right now. 
 49:25: So all of that is done. 
 49:26: Like it's only our minds that live in that, that story, the past, the trauma, and I think when we can master like being in the present moment and and to your point, like really visualizing the life we want to be living. 
 49:37: , I think there's like power in that because I agree. 
 49:40: I think so many people live in in the past and the past doesn't even exist. 
 49:45: Yeah, it's only. 
 49:48: And we don't have to forget about it, right? 
 49:50: We don't have to, but we don't have to be defined by it. 
 49:52: Yeah, yeah, I think something that comes up for me, I think people stick in their stories because they're so deeply want to be heard. 
 50:01: And they like are hoping that someone's gonna see them, validate them, and, and I think there's room for that in your healing journey, but I do love the fact that you're saying like let's not get so attached that this is here. 
 50:11: Who do we want to become? 
 50:12: I think we think that it's. 
 50:17: I don't have any idea how an iPhone works. 
 50:20: I can use it just fine, right? 
 50:22: And I don't have, I don't have any scientific comprehension how this plant like actually grows, but I can take care of it and have it grow. 
 50:29: I think that that is we don't actually need to, we've been convinced we need to understand. 
 50:34: There's a lot of safety and understanding. 
 50:37: Yeah, you know, I think that's like the biggest thing. 
 50:39: Well, if I understand, if other people understand me then. 
 50:42: I don't have to worry so much about whatever perceptions. 
 50:44: There's like a lot of control in that. 
 50:46: There's like the sense of like, oh, there's so much safety, I understand. 
 50:48: But the consequences in safety we stay still, right? 
 50:52: We don't, we never grow in safety. 
 50:53: We never have anything and obviously we're we're talking about like, we're not talking about like actual in danger, right? 
 51:00: I think there's, we want people to be safe, like not in danger, but we're so committed to our comfort and safety, like overly committed. 
 51:10: Yeah. 
 51:10: Got to push that edge. 
 51:12: So the last question we always like to ask every guest is where in your life currently do you want to be more fully expressed? 
 51:19: , it actually feels so easy, in the baby journey,, Evan and I have this conversation all the time where, you know, when she, when her cycle comes and she realizes she's not pregnant, she's heartbroken, right? 
 51:41: That's like, and she'll come to me and she'll say, you know, I just got my period and my and I. 
 51:49: Respons usually like I'm sorry, but I also noticed that I don't feel anything that I'm Like, OK, well, next month or whatever, I'm gonna go back to my work. 
 52:01: And there's nothing wrong with that. 
 52:02: I'm not like a bad person for that or anything. 
 52:05: But what I do notice is it's actually a way to protect myself. 
 52:08: I have to be with Heartbreak every month, or even many days of the month because it's not like you get that one and then you're good after that moment. 
 52:19: feels like too much. 
 52:21: Like I don't wanna be, I can, I can justify it in my mind. 
 52:25: I'm like, no, I, cause I gotta work and I gotta stay focused on goals and like helping people and all, and really it's just like it's too much to feel. 
 52:34: Yeah, it's like a lot to have to be with that heartbreak, and like in something that's so out of my control, there's nothing I can do to have it go different and that also feels scary. 
 52:48: Can I ask a clarifying question? 
 52:50: Are you asking to feel more of the heartbreak or something different? 
 52:55: What does it mean to be fully expressed in this journey? 
 52:58: Well, I think like to be able to feel more like the thing you will have more on the other side. 
 53:08: The, I, I'm, I'm not allowing myself to be expressed in the heartbreak and the pain, and I know that I don't know exactly where that doesn't show up on the other side like where's the place where I'm not getting full joy and and celebration, but I feel this spot is like I'm not expressed. 
 53:25: I'm like holding it in because it's too painful. 
 53:28: I think, I think for me just fortunately, I'm like pretty expressed, But I noticed the places where there's opportunities are the places where I don't want to feel, where there's pain, and I know the opportunities if I were to feel that. 
 53:45: You know, the places where I would get joy would be so much more joyful. 
 53:51: Well, we are holding the vision for both of you, you know. 
 53:55: And it's really beautiful that, I mean, it's really beautiful that you look at yourself in that way. 
 53:59: Like you reflect and you see like, OK, there's, there is room for me to express more. 
 54:03: And it's also access to more light that I don't even know about in a season that feels really tough, you know, especially with just babies and pregnancy, it's such a hard up and down rollercoaster as women, we get to face that monthly, you know, it's like the constant, but how beautiful that you are so brave to want to do that. 
 54:22: Or desire, you know, there's a part of you that. 
 54:25: Maybe you don't want to, but can. 
 54:27: Yeah, I just know there's something, it's, it's just more of life that That isn't. 
 54:35: That isn't felt, you know, I think when. 
 54:37: I remember like the first time I did plant medicine and it had me like sob and I was like, oh this feels so good, but I needed something to like help me get release. 
 54:49: And then I was like, oh, I felt like this was gonna feel horrible. 
 54:52: Like I didn't, it was like not cry and it's and again I don't want to be somebody who's walking around the streets like bawling that's not helpful. 
 55:00: But what I noticed is that like again letting myself have that gave me so many things on the other side of the spectrum. 
 55:07: So yeah, not necessarily a I think I'm excited about feeling sad and heartbroken, but I see the like opportunity. 
 55:16: There's a beautiful that comes when you lean into that stuff. 
 55:19: Yeah, totally. 
 55:20: Well, thank you so much. 
 55:21: This has been awesome. 
 55:22: Yeah, I just loved your perspective on everything, genuinely. 
 55:25: I mean, I feel like there was something for both men and women in that conversation. 
 55:29: I loved how you shared literally the one thing that like really stood out from our conversation for me personally was just like how women have been given the buffet. 
 55:37: And there's transitional history, but men haven't, and I love how we were able to kind of bridge the gap to where men can have the buffet. 
 55:45: Can I ask you a question? 
 55:47: What's the thing that you Both notice and it doesn't have to be about your men specifically, but men in general. 
 55:56: Like what do you think they're struggling with the most? 
 56:00: I think it's the same thing women struggle with, which is being seen, being fully seen and accepted for who they are. 
 56:05: And I think that we like to your point, live in such a capitalist society that we've put value on material and physical things and not on who we are as people. 
 56:15: And I think that it makes people afraid to like fully let themselves be seen because they think they have to look a certain way or be a certain way or talk a certain way. 
 56:23: And I think that the more we create spaces for men in particular, I think women are getting more permission to be seen currently, but I think, I think for all people, there's a space to be. 
 56:36: Welcomed into just like showing up in your fullest expression, whatever that is. 
 56:40: And I think it's a responsibility on us to not just as women, but as people to be OK with discomfort, to be OK with someone having a different opinion or having a different viewpoint or seeing the world from a different place. 
 56:53: I think sometimes for, I think there's safety and being right and so we like to be right, but I think in being right, we lose the perspective of other people. 
 57:03: That's pretty good. 
 57:06: I'm like, what else do I say? 
 57:07: I like the person that's coming up to my mind is like my dad the most in general and like the way I wish he had more opportunities to express himself. 
 57:15: I feel like he found his opportunity to express himself later in life. 
 57:19: So I wish there were more spaces for men to express themselves fully, you know, like I think a lot of men hold back their honest opinion or sometimes sharing or whatever is true for them. 
 57:30: So I wish there was more of that, just in general. 
 57:33: So like more opportunity for them to be them and also be OK with like if they're feeling a certain emotion, who can hold that for them. 
 57:40: But just like the silliness, like I've seen my dad really step into like like a child with my mom in some ways and his healing journey like later in life. 
 57:48: And so I hope that more men do that because it's like coming from the corporate space, everyone's just kind of like together, buttoned up together and I'm like it's like very. 
 57:56: OK, and I feel like they're holding their breath almost and I'm like I wish it was just like, who are you? 
 58:01: I just want to feel you and exhale, exhale, like tell me more about you and I think I do a good job in corporate specifically like asking men deeper questions that I don't think they get the opportunity to, but they are just like. 
 58:13: Together, you know, it's like this. 
 58:15: It's like this is the position that I can stay in and this is what I do, you know, they're almost like really good at just like. 
 58:25: Letting everyone let them, but then operating in their own worlds, versus I wish they would just bring themselves into the world. 
 58:31: Yeah, both really good. 
 58:33: I'd love to feel them. 
 58:35: Yeah, we, we hear that a lot like you're, when we say that a lot to men, your women can't feel you and they're like, what does that mean? 
 58:45: And, and it It's expression, right? 
 58:49: It's not, it's not how much you made or what you did or your accomplishments. 
 58:52: It's actually. 
 58:54: Being seen and felt in your emotions. 
 58:57: Not yet. 
 58:58: And I think about this like you're just, I did like a little poem about what it meant to be like a fully expressed woman and I literally said, you know, it's to be a fully expressed person is to be felt, but you say your truth, you speak your truth, you expose your things other people can feel you in that. 
 59:11: So and I think we have to stop saying like women don't need men. 
 59:14: We do need men. 
 59:14: We need the masculine energy. 
 59:16: We need the container. 
 59:16: We need the support. 
 59:18: Like women, if it's only women, it's like very flowy and all over the place, which is beautiful and creative, but I think we need to stop that narrative and realize that we need men, we need women and we need them to be like fully themselves. 
 59:33: Yeah, we need. 
 59:33: We need and we need them all to do it in their own way. 
 59:35: Like I think about. 
 59:37: Some women are more masculine than men and and just naturally, not because and like we can embrace that and some men are more fun and we can embrace that and like the, I think that that like spectrum is, it's like everyone is on that. 
 59:50: And there's not like men have to be on all on one side and women like it can be all spread out and everybody's gifts are. 
 59:57: Are like layered in there. 
 59:58: I was I'm gonna wrap this up soon, but the we with Alexis, the one thing that I was saying is like I always get frustrated like, why can't we live in a world where everyone is accepted to think, be, feel whatever they feel, and everyone was just loved in that and supported in that and celebrated in that. 
 1:00:13: Like I see like little kids running around and everyone has their thing and everyone's loved for it and no one's being like, you should do it this way or this is the way you should do it because I really think that we each have our own flavor and when we bring our own flavor into the world, we create this and masterpiece, but I think the more that we do the work on ourselves to accept that, the more that we can do that for others too, which you're doing that with Alchemy of Men. 
 1:00:35: Yeah. 
 1:00:36: So thank you. 
 1:00:37: Thank you so much. 
 1:00:38: This was a great conversation. 
 1:00:39: It was perfect. 
 1:00:41: Thank you for having me. 
 1:00:43: Thank you so much for tuning in. 
 1:00:44: We really appreciate you being here. 
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 1:00:52: Also, we would love to hear from you. 
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 1:01:01: We are here to support you and encourage you. 
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 1:01:10: Embracing your journey toward authenticity is a vital part of that process, and we're grateful to be alongside you. 
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