In this power-packed episode, we dive deep into the evolving dynamics of modern masculinity and relationships.
Quentin Williams joins us to tackle the nuances of being a high-performing man while embracing emotional intelligence and integration. Ladies, if you’re navigating relationships with ambitious men (or you’re one yourself!), this episode is a must-listen. We explore what it really means to move beyond societal expectations and cultivate authentic, thriving partnerships.
0:02: Welcome to the Fully expressed podcast.
0:03: We are your hosts, Samantha and Karenna.
0:06: This is a show where we invite you into your fullest expressed self and life, relationships, and business.
0:11: We believe that if you crave more, you are meant for more.
0:14: There is room for all of us to be fully expressed.
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0:25: You’ll find the link to join in the show notes and on our website.
0:28: So excited to see you there.
0:30: Enjoy this new episode.
0:34: Hi, and welcome back to another episode of the Fully expressed podcast.
0:39: We’re so excited to have Quentin Williams with us today.
0:42: He is one of our good friends.
0:45: He is a mental performance coach and facilitator for men and athletes.
0:50: His mission is helping high performers build confidence and embody healthy masculinity by training in the often misunderstood science of emotional intelligence.
1:01: Thanks for being here.
1:02: Thanks for having me, gals.
1:05: I’m honored.
1:06: It’s so fun because this is the 2nd time that you’re on the podcast.
1:10: You were a part of the podcast launch.
1:12: I was on the podcast.
1:13: I was half of the podcast, so now I’m full podcast.
1:16: Yeah, it is all about you.
1:19: It was so good though, that day.
1:20: Oh my gosh, yeah, the launch party was so fun and you and Rochelle together were amazing.
1:25: Yeah.
1:25: Thank you.
1:26: And now it’s just you.
1:27: Yeah.
1:28: I think it’s so fun because like you’re not only like one of our best friends, you know, we get to see you all the time and we also get to highlight you and be in this room with you.
1:35: So yeah, thank you so much for being here.
1:37: Thank you.
1:38: It’s an honor.
1:39: It means a lot.
1:40: I’ll have you as many times as you want to come back.
1:42: Yeah.
1:44: Next week.
1:45: He only quitting for the next 8 episodes.
1:48: He’s gonna do a whole master class, step by step recording.
1:51: I mean, there’s a lot of people who would benefit from it, so, oh yeah, for sure they’ll be, and I think what’s what I love about your work and that I think is so important, I think a lot of women listen to this podcast and You specifically work with men.
2:04: So, and I think there is this desire for, how do I say this?
2:10: Women want their men to grow, whatever that looks like, where I know men are also craving growth and connection and depth that you’re bringing, so it’s just such, it’s what you’re doing and what I’m saying is just so important.
2:21: I feel like you’re at the beginning of that and you’re just gonna continue to see that evolve.
2:25: So thank you for what you’re doing for men.
2:28: And the men that we’re in relationships with, right?
2:31: So a lot of the listeners here are women, and we do get some men that listen to the podcast.
2:36: However, like, you know, one of the topics that we want to hit in on is like, and I think more men can relate to this, as well as maybe women can recognize that they’re in relationship with men as well that are facing this, is I want to talk about how is it, or how, how, I guess, how is it, you can say that you’re in a relationship with someone that is high achieve.
2:57: What is it like to be with a woman that seems like they’re on their masculine and when it comes into their business side, but then you also see them in their feminine.
3:05: So what does that dynamic look like or feel like?
3:08: First of all, it’s like such a gift to witness a woman in both her feminine and also in her masculine to be to witness my partner doing so many good things, being so dedicated and focused and driven.
3:21: I mean, it’s very sexy for me, like I love that.
3:24: And there’s nothing greater for me than to be able to have her trust me enough to relax into her feminine, and to let down her guard and as she would say, melt into me.
3:36: Like that’s the greatest gift.
3:38: I feel like I can give her at the same rate.
3:40: And so it’s, you know, I’m a big believer, a firm believer in both and I don’t think that we need to choose whether we show up in our masculine or feminine.
3:48: I think it’s a gift to embody both and.
3:52: Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s definitely a challenge for most men as cause as you alluded to, more and more men are finding themselves in that place, you know, men are used to being in our culture, the high performers, you know, I would.
4:04: Yeah, yeah, the, the thing, yeah, there’s there’s kind of two schools of like men’s work and men’s emotional intelligence work if you call it that.
4:13: One is like helping men access their feminine and access their emotions and access their ability to like.
4:18: Open up, which so many women want more men to do, and more men do want to do, they just don’t know really have the tools or you don’t really know how to do it the right way, and they don’t want to screw it up.
4:27: And then you also have like a school of thought in men’s work that kind of does the opposite, like they want men to focus on their faith, finances, fitness, and right, right, like those like kind of key pillars of like what people think is masculine, so to speak,, and I don’t think we have to choose between those two.
4:43: I think we can have all of that and be a very integrated man.
4:46: I think that’s like my best examples, you know, of what a man looks like embodied that when I was growing up.
4:52: And so I’m, I’m trying to, like, in my work, I try to embody it as much as I can.
4:57: I’m not perfect, but like I try to live that so that other guys can see that cause I think that’s the greatest gift as a man you can get as a an example.
5:05: You know, you don’t want to hear someone talk about something unless they actually walk it.
5:09: Yeah.
5:10: What are some of the, the blocks or the resistance to getting to that place of integrated integrated man, which I really like that you use that, right?
5:18: It’s like the integrated man.
5:19: It’s like the yes and the multiple, the multi-dimensional man, that I can be all the things kind of man that have access to multiple part parts of you.
5:28: Yeah.
5:28: What is some of that resistance that you’ve seen men come up against?
5:32: , well, first off, I’ll say something.
5:34: thing that might be a little controversial, but like, I think a lot of men would like relate to this is as a man, I support and I, I love my woman.
5:43: I love her for like what she can bring and how she can show up in her masculine, but I don’t think a lot of men are like, they find it really sexy that their partner can bring home a bunch of money and provide for them.
5:53: You know what I mean?
5:55: Like that’s not the the drawing factor.
5:58: Like it’s, it’s about seeing a woman who can show up in a masculine way, not as a man, but like in a masculine way to like do what she says she’s gonna do, like be determined, be focused, and show that she’s trustworthy.
6:10: It’s one of the most valuable traits is like you want to be able to trust the person that you’re with.
6:14: Yeah.
6:14: She says she does.
6:15: What’s that?
6:16: You say you use something.
6:18: Exactly, yeah, yeah, you follow through with it, and I’m so grateful to be with a partner that’s really good friends with you guys that like does that, does that really well, and she teaches me that consistently as well.
6:28: I’ve traditionally been a Very disciplined person, but in many ways, I think actually diving more into my feminine and learning more about my feminine and my emotions has allowed me a little bit of a loose leash when it comes to being disciplined, candidly.
6:41: Like I’ve, and I’ve seen a lot of people in like my work in my space, talking about men’s work, and I’ve seen people kind of fall, like, go too far on the other side of the pendulum, so to speak, and kind of get stuck there.
6:52: You know, the same way you can get stuck in your masculine, like you can also get stuck in your emotions.
6:57: And I, I don’t think any of us want that.
6:59: We want I feel like we can have agility, basically, like show up when we need to step up and then open up when we need to.
7:06: Yeah, and I think that’s what ideally most women want.
7:10: They want to feel that connection that oftentimes they don’t feel with a man that’s like too far in the in the like, I’m just gonna go work out and get the work done.
7:19: And then, or they’re too and they’re feminine and that’s also unattractive to be in that like kind of little boy energy or where you feel like you’re in the mother, the mother energy.
7:27: Yeah, exactly.
7:28: And that’s hard, I think, to To kind of peel back where you’re talking about.
7:31: So a lot of people are doing the work, right?
7:33: And a lot of the times the work starts for men softening.
7:36: And so they’re on the path of, well, I’m softening, I’m, I’m connecting to my emotions.
7:41: I’m connecting to my intuition.
7:43: I’m learning how to flow, I’m learning how to surrender.
7:46: And so I think for women, I will say like, be aware that you could be meeting them anywhere on the journey, but you’re also saying like, for men, this is an invitation for you to find balance in that.
7:57: And it’s hard because like in my own personal journey, I’ve had To swing the pendulum really far to learn the benefits of being in my feminine.
8:05: And then I also had to learn the pendulum of the strengths of being in the masculine, and you just got to find your balance in both.
8:10: And so I think for men also recognizing maybe like, where are you on that, or like, maybe you’re halfway in between, or maybe you’re just leaning more right or more left in that.
8:20: And at the same time, it’s like, I think women do crave that.
8:23: They just don’t know how to say that.
8:25: They’re like, I, I want to know you deeper.
8:28: I want to feel you.
8:30: Like I want the depths of you.
8:31: I want, I don’t want it I want it.
8:39: And then we also want the man that’s gonna be like, Hey honey, this is what we’re gonna do, this is what we got going on this weekend, like here’s some direction.
8:46: We’re like they can pick you up and throw you against the wall.
8:48: I don’t know, like in a sexual way, not a violent way.
8:51: Yeah, exactly.
8:52: We’re like action and like up against the wall and what’s up Michelle told me that this morning.
9:00: And I think I would also say like, OK, so we’re talking masculine founding can look differently in business dynamics to relationship dynamics.
9:07: And sometimes you can say, well, in my business, I show up this way and it works.
9:11: Yeah.
9:11: And I think our relationships, our businesses can be relationships as well.
9:15: And so what is, what have you found the dance and like, OK, how do I so when, when do you soften in relationship, like come home versus, you know, being And you’re more masculine in business, you know, what was, how’s that dance or maybe the blend of both or do they look different?
9:31: Do they look similar?
9:32: Yeah.
9:33: Well, I mean, I, I do think, first off, I think that like during COVID, we lost a really functional part of our society which was the commute.
9:41: Yeah, the commute between home and work and just like that 30 minutes sometimes it’s an hour for people to just sit in their car and do what they want to do, you know what I mean?
9:50: I kind of have that that that buffer between work and life, you know, to check back in with themselves.
9:56: I don’t think people realized they were doing this, but like they love time in their car.
9:59: It’s like you’re in therapy office, you know, do what you gotta do a friend that you, yeah.
10:09: Yeah, and I think there’s there’s a masculine part of all of us that loves kind of going out, adventuring, and then coming back home, you know.
10:16: And so I think we can all do that in different ways, but in COVID era now, post COVID, we’re all working from home, essentially, you know, we’re all kind of in the same environment, whereas more traditional roles would have more of the more of the women at home and more of the men and out and about and adventuring, and so that separation, I think, can be really helpful.
10:35: And so like creating that in your own way is good, is something that I think is helpful to do.
10:41: You know, for me, like I kind of create my own commute.
10:43: I go on a walk every morning after breakfast and like I have to tell Rochelle like I I’m basically not available for like kind of chit chat, like even at lunch, like a little bit once in a while, but like, I need to be in work mode.
10:55: I need to kind of imagine myself out on a hunt right now or like out doing like man stuff, you know, and being in the dirt and getting dirty and like just doing.
11:05: Doing guy stuff, you know what I mean?
11:07: Cause I think that’s that’s enriching for us as men, and a lot of us have lost touch with that as guys, you know, we’ve lost touch with that, you know, kind of dirty, sweaty, you know, messy kind of part of ourselves, that’s more adventurous and so I, I think, you know, we need to go out and create that on our own in different ways, how we need to do that and then add a little bit of a buffer between that business space and home life.
11:28: Because, you know, coming back home,, you know, you don’t wanna be bringing the pressure and the stress of work back home.
11:36: You wanna be able to, as a man and as a woman, to be able to come home and let all that go, like literally let it go and say, OK, tomorrow is a new a new day, this is a new page, and right now what really needs my attention is a new version of me.
11:51: Like my partner or my home needs a new version of me, a different version of me, and I think that reset button is really good, you know, to get you into that.
11:59: And how do you call that emotional agility is what I call that, it’s like kind of being able to, you know, like if, if anybody, any of the listeners like ever played Madden or like a big football game like you you have like agility of speed, you have power and like to be able to be really agile on your feet and kind of dance between.
12:15: The two and kind of those two sides of yourselves, I think that’s powerful and potent, but you kind of need to build in those little buffer points to kind of get there.
12:24: I was just going to ask, how do you and Rochelle do that because you’re both entrepreneurs who work from home, and I know sometimes when you’re an entrepreneur, it’s really hard to shut it off at a certain time because you’re the boss.
12:34: So what are some of the things you guys do, or maybe you do to create that boundary of like, OK, we’re done for the day or I’m done for the day?
12:43: Yeah.
12:43: It’s one of been one of my biggest struggles, biggest struggles, cause if you’re a high performing guy, like a lot of the guys I work with, a lot of former athletes that are like really trying to meet that same level of success in the real world, like, and you know, I’ve I work with women too that are executives and like entrepreneurs and like they have the same kind of thing, like they’re working until 9 p.m. sometimes and There’s no real time for themselves or for their partner or for like real intimacy, cause they’re not really present for the things that they really want to be present for.
13:10: So it’s, it’s stressful, and I feel for a lot of people I’ve, I experienced that myself,, but I think, you know, it’s, it’s really a matter of, of trying to let go and like remind yourself that there’s always gonna be more work.
13:23: You can have rituals like make sure that you you actually before every day you actually have like a A simple to do list that’s actually reasonable, accessible, and like, you know, like I’m kind of a, I’m a bit, I’m not the best with that.
13:37: I often have like a to do list of like 5 or 6 things and I’m I I’m like still hoping maybe I’ll get like to 7 or 8 or 9 too if I’m lucky, and I only get like 3 done, you know, it’s like I should have just started with 3.
13:49: I feel like that’s so common though to to write too many things.
13:52: Yeah, I think.
13:53: Overplan anyone in their masculine.
13:55: I think that’s important to know that both women and men both have masculine feminine dynamics.
14:00: And if you’re leaning really hard into the masculine, you love your to do list.
14:04: You love things that feel really good to check it off because our ego feels good, you know, in some ways.
14:09: So I think that can also just, that’s good for anyone that’s listening what you just said.
14:14: Definitely, and I think like there’s like the ego part of our masculine, there’s the ego part.
14:18: feminine too, you know, you hear like toxic femininity or toxic masculinity thrown around, you’re starting to hear more people talk about like, it’s not just men that are like are experiencing toxic toxic masculinity.
14:30: We also have toxic femininity and like we all have versions of that.
14:33: We have shadow sides of our feminine like a man that’s like can’t can’t manage his emotions or is like getting fiercely angry over the smallest things, that’s that’s a man in his toxic feminine.
14:44: is shadow feminine, and for a man to be overworking or to be so focused on that 8 item to do list, that’s that’s toxic, that’s like toxic to him.
14:54: You know, it’s that’s a shadow that’s trying to prove something to his ego, trying to make himself look good or feel good or fill a void, you know, so that’s where you go to the deeper work and you try to analyze that, dissect that, feel that, and see what’s underneath it.
15:09: So that you can kind of heal a little boy within you that needs affirmation or needs to feel like he’s doing a good job, and he’s doing enough.
15:16: So you can turn that into more of a healthy masculine, which like a healthy masculine man can like acknowledge his success in the day, he can like be grateful for what he has and he can show up in the moment like.
15:26: Those are all really powerful masculine traits.
15:30: I want to bring it back into like, in moments where, which I was really beautiful, in moments where you get triggered in relationship, you know, I think we all think that everything is a mirror in relationship or showing us something, and I think talking to that concept would be so helpful to anyone that’s listening, but also just to men.
15:48: I’m like, I’ve seen your content on this, like, hey, you get triggered by this, so you find yourself angry, you just mentioned the word angry.
15:55: Can you walk us through, like, what can that experience be for a man and how can they work through that?
15:59: For example, one of my favorite clients that I’ve ever worked with, we’ve been working together for about a year now, but like within the first couple months he like shot me a message and he was like, hey, like I’m finding myself getting defensive, like when my wife, like, just.
16:13: Notices some things or like tells me like I’m doing something wrong or not the way that she wants it to be, and I get really defensive and I get angry, and it’s like, well, we’d already kind of worked through like what kind of brings up some of that emotion.
16:24: Like it’s usually for him it’s like some toxic stuff, shame in the past that he’s been holding on to or hasn’t been speaking up the way he’s needed to and held back his truth basically for a couple of years, finally starting to express it, but he’s still finding that like, you know, he’s triggered triggered, you know, I’m still having my experience I’m like I’m like.
16:43: Yeah, like, you’re, you’re still a guy, like you’re still human, you know, you’re still living life and so good, you know, like good, you have kind of Plato to work with here and you can continue to evolve.
16:53: And and so I, I asked him a second question.
16:55: I was like, well, like what could maybe this defensiveness be trying to teach you?
16:59: Often when we’re getting angry, we’re actually anger serves two purposes, was a primal purpose of like getting big and angry and defensive to defend my turf, to defend my my loved ones.
17:11: And that’s primal for a man.
17:12: That’s probably yeah yeah yeah, good, good clarification.
17:17: I mean, I see women need to get angry too.
17:19: Rochelle needs to get angry more.
17:21: I tell her all the time, like she feels it, but she doesn’t feel like she can really express it because a lot of her life she was sort of shameed for feeling any sort of emotion, especially anger, you know, that was kind of my past too and so like we kind of mirror each other a lot.
17:35: So when I see her not.
17:36: emotion, I’m really talking to myself.
17:37: I’m like, speak up if you’re angry, say it, you know, because that’s a boundary.
17:43: Anger is not necessarily wrong, but it can be ego that’s talking, so you can be holding a boundary which is not your ego, that’s just that’s your primal nature.
17:52: You need to get angry to hold a boundary, you know.
17:54: But sometimes we’re not protecting our boundaries, sometimes our anger is protecting.
17:59: ego, and what I mean by that is, our ego is always worried about how things look, or how we are perceived or afraid of failure.
18:08: It’s all rooted in fear, and it’s all rooted in separation.
18:11: So if you’re getting angry and you’re getting defensive in situations, ask yourself, could I be feeling something that’s a little deeper, which is probably one of the three emotions, which is like, I’m ashamed of something, like you’re pointing out something that I actually know is true, and I’m ashamed that like I did this wrong and Like, I’m ashamed of that, and I’ve been doing this wrong for a long time, and I don’t want to really admit it, so I’m just gonna get mad at you right now, because that’s easier, you know, than admitting again that I screwed up.
18:37: You know, how many guys can relate to that?
18:38: How many women can say I can yeah.
18:40: I was like, that’s always my internal conversation when it’s like, what’s wrong?
18:44: Why are you mad?
18:44: I’m like, it’s not you.
18:46: I swear.
18:47: I know I’m embarrassed or I’m ashamed or I’m guilty.
18:50: Like, the truth is like more of me being mad at me, but it’s coming out as me being mad at.
18:56: Then, yeah, and it’s always just like, OK, it’s not you, promise.
19:00: I said that I haven’t said this one thing and you’re reflecting it back to me and I’m, this is just a whole process, but it’s, I’m glad you’re walking, breaking this down because people don’t recognize that, right?
19:10: They get defensive, they say, whatever, and then they da da da da da and they shut down or walk away or don’t want to, or they are expressive about it, but they don’t realize, well, where is that really coming from?
19:21: Yeah, and so like let’s take that example.
19:23: shame is the one the emotion where.
19:24: on for now.
19:25: Take, take an example, like, you know, my client, for instance, he feels ashamed that he’s been told to do this, like change the diaper a certain way, you know, like 10 times and keep screwing it up, you know, he’s just not being present enough, he’s stuck in maybe work mode or isn’t paying enough attention, he’s just ashamed that he’s he’s doing things wrong again, and he’s not showing up in the way that he wants to and so he, here’s the key here is like, it’s one thing to notice that he’s feeling it, another thing to then do something with that emotion, like actually feel it in like.
19:53: Process it and maybe bring it up to his partner.
19:56: It’s a whole other thing to dump it on his partner like it’s her fault, you know, and like, talk through it with them and like sort through it with their partner.
20:04: That’s that I think can maybe go too far, right?
20:07: Like you don’t want to dump all your stuff on your partner and like all your insecurities and all the all the shame that you have.
20:12: That’s where I think it’s really helpful for guys to be able to have other guys in their corner, friends, or it can be other females, doesn’t matter.
20:18: It’s just like having people that you can talk to besides just your partner.
20:22: About what’s kind of going on, you know, because that kind of creates it creates a situation where often the partner doesn’t have a choice whether to just be here and take it or like work through with you or not, because you’re the only resource that that man has, you know, so that was a big kind of eye opener for me is like, I need to be able to go to many different places to kind of get my needs met emotionally and process things and I also need to be able to do that well with myself, you know, but I do think that obviously comm like, hey, I’m finding myself getting angry right now, you know, but I realize right now as I’m feeling it, I’m actually ashamed that like I’ve done this so many times.
20:59: I need to figure this out for myself.
21:01: I’m gonna work on it.
21:03: You don’t need to worry about it, honey, but like, you know, I just want you to know where I’m at.
21:06: I’m sorry I got angry, really feeling this.
21:09: I’m gonna go take care of it, you know, I think that’s a responsible way to handle it versus like looking for almost like therapy is what it turns into from experience.
21:20: I from the past, yeah, I mean, all of us, I think, yeah, and I think women also have a more comfortability going to one another for things like that versus men.
21:28: Like you’re saying, I think they have a really hard time going to other men and being like, I’m feeling ashamed, you know, or whatever it might be.
21:35: Can you pull that thread though?
21:36: Like, what can we do to invite you invite men to feel more open to sharing with other men?
21:42: Because I think there is this natural, I’m a man, I’m independent, I can figure it out on my own.
21:47: I, I don’t know what you guys.
21:48: Can do.
21:49: That’s a good question.
21:50: Not unless, even you, like as a man, like, not just us, like I think that’s a constant thing, you know, I’m gonna go work it out, go do something on my own, go for a walk, and they just kind of sit in it, but you’re saying like, it’s actually so important to have other men in your corner that can support you.
22:07: Yeah.
22:08: A lot of guys don’t realize how much they need that until they try they have it, yeah.
22:12: Yeah, until they have it, then you’re like, oh wow, I’ve been missing this.
22:16: I did.
22:17: No, this was something I needed.
22:19: And I don’t know, I mean, a history lesson helps, you know, like learning about how we’ve lost our touch with other guys like could be helpful.
22:27: I could share a little bit about that.
22:28: Also just like actually experiencing it, like having a guy that calls you and asks you how you’re doing and like asks a question a little bit deeper, like, OK, well how you’re really doing, you know, having those kinds of friends.
22:39: So if you’re a guy listening or even a woman listening like just like following up with the guys a little bit, checking in with the guys.
22:45: Cause usually their first answer is not what they actually mean or what they feel, cause guys just kind of carry that burden.
22:50: They think they have to hold it alone and it’s often a very silent burden.
22:54: But a history lesson for for everyone here is like, this is really pretty groundbreaking for me is like, if you think about it, like primally, let’s go back to primal stuff, like way back in the day, most civilizations,, most women were hanging out together, like you mentioned, much more communal in general, but like men also had that.
23:13: To.
23:14: We had going out for a hunt we had initiation rites, like we had all sorts of processes in mankind’s history to initiate men, to learn from your elders, for elders to learn lessons from younger boys that are like lighting up and so full of joy, you know, like you learn so much from each other by being around each other and supporting one another, you know, to get a hunt done, you know, and kill a massive animal, like you need the whole crew and you need it to be working in unison.
23:42: And but there’s also a lot of downtime on a hunt.
23:45: There’s a lot of time to talk about what’s going on, you know, at home or on the home front or internally.
23:50: So, you know, that was really the way that men taught each other how to show up as men, you know, what they believed was masculinity.
23:58: And so, and then you had, of course, rites of passage, which were much more formal ways to do that.
24:03: Now we have bar mitzvahs.
24:05: communion or what is it called communion confirmation confirmation, yeah, you know, but like for, for someone who’s secular, like when do you when do you turn into a man when you’re 18, you know, like when you get married, that’s becoming later and later these days, you know, when you buy your first home, when you get your first car, like, what, what is the real sign of masculinity of like Becoming a man, there’s no stamp of approval anymore.
24:30: A lot of guys don’t get the the the sex talk anymore.
24:33: A lot of guys don’t learn how to shave from their dad, like, so one of the big questions to ask is, is like, where did you learn how to be a man?
24:40: And a lot of us learned this from like TV more and more at YouTube these days, more and more it could be unfortunately porn and like different outlets on the internet.
24:49: You know, there’s a lot of faulty narratives out there around what it means to be a man.
24:54: So that’s a helpful lesson just to notice like this this is something we’ve lost on ourselves, is like this connection to each other as guys, and that is one thing that I think sports really does really well in many cases, is it puts you around other guys that are your peers, you’re working together, you’re learning teamwork, you’re, you have some some role models, you have some mentors, you have a great coach, you know, ideally a really good coach.
25:17: Who sees you, who loves you, who can pat you on the back, but also, you know, like lay the hammer down when he needs to.
25:22: Yeah, and like some some guys have a really good example of that, but unfortunately there’s a lot of bad coaches out there, a lot of bad examples of what masculinity is.
25:31: I’ve been around tons of them, but I’ve also been around a few coaches that like really showed me what it means to be an integrated man, you know,, I’ve been talking for a while here, but I think that that lesson of how we’ve essentially lost our Deep connection in our men’s groups and our men’s communities to industrialization now, like we’ve replaced that with, we’ve replaced that with podcasts with Joe Rogan, which I love Joe.
25:55: Like, we need more than an audio in our ear, we need a real person, you know, and there aren’t as many role models, I think, as a fully integrated men.
26:04: Like there’s a lot of even Joe Rogan, I see, he’s coming more into his feminine a little bit.
26:09: I’ve noticed over the last couple of years.
26:11: But definitely for a long time, he was that like masculine man, you know, and it’s like, but we want to see, I would love to see more men, like all of our, like you, like our partners that are trying to step into that integrated, like being able to to have that softness, but also step into their power.
26:29: Yeah.
26:29: Yeah.
26:30: 100% more examples.
26:31: That makes me think about a question for women.
26:33: What can women do to support men in their most integrated men menness?
26:39: Madness madness.
26:42: I mean we had one guest on who talked about women tend, she does couples coaching, and she talked about how women tend to emasculate men, but very subtly.
26:50: So like criticize, so it made me think of the partner’s wife being like you didn’t do the diaper right, but like the way we approach it is like an accusation or we say something as a joke, but it’s not really a joke.
27:02: You’re like kind of giving them a poke, but you’re like, I’m kidding, I’m kidding.
27:06: It wasn’t really a poke, but you’re like, oh, it’s it’s a poke and you can get real with yourself like, yeah, I definitely threw out that poke.
27:13: Yeah, that was a poke.
27:15: You’re right.
27:16: Well, I’ve got gotten this question a lot.
27:18: I think that the best answer I have is usually,, in 5 years of marketing to men, I’ve learned quite a few things of what not to say, what not to call out for women to say just as a marker just talking to a guy, just talking to any guy, whether you’re a man or a woman.
27:33: You don’t want to tell them that they’re broken or they need to be fixed.
27:38: That’s usually poking at a trigger, at a deeper core wound and So like anytime a man feels like he’s doing something wrong, he kind of feels like he’s being reprimanded by his father or his mother, you know, and it’s probably ripping up something of like, I feel broken, or if I don’t feel enough, and there’s maybe some father wounding there, which is usually around that feeling of not feeling enough or not inadequate.
28:01: And so like, try not to trigger the emotion of shame, if you could avoid it, you know, try not to say something that could be easily construed as like, oh I fucked up.
28:10: Doing terrible, you know, I’m, I’m gonna lose you or I’m I’m not good enough for you, or just, yeah, so what what I think can be really helpful is, is instead of accusations or like statements, you can ask questions.
28:24: Questions are one of the most powerful ways for us to see ourselves more clearly.
28:28: , you’ll see a lot of, I’ve seen mothers do this, and it’s just like, it really hits my heart.
28:32: I lost my mom when I was younger, so like, usually when I see a movie or I’m seeing a woman like with their child, like out in the back.
28:37: And I see a woman like talking so gently and lovingly to their son, it’s just like really hits me.
28:44: If there’s a topic I’ll get emotional about it’s it’s that, because like there’s that unconditional love that every man wants from his partner.
28:52: You’re not really gonna get it from anyone besides your mom.
28:55: I mean, realistically besides your blood, you know what I mean?
28:57: Who’s gonna care if you completely unconditionally, like, I mean, that’s why divorce rates are what they are, like we, we don’t, it’s not how relationships work.
29:05: Right, but,, you, every man wants that kind of feeling.
29:10: They want that kind of sense of like, oh, like you got me, you know what I mean?
29:14: and and everything’s OK, like you’re not wrong, I’m not judging you, you know, that’s such a deep warm feeling for a man to feel and a way that you can do that that I’ve seen a lot of women do with their kids is like, if they find their kid is like, I don’t know, like beating a hammer on a wall or something like that or like, Drawing on the refrigerator, they won’t like scold them.
29:36: They won’t say like, stop doing that.
29:37: I told you a million times, stop doing that.
29:39: They’ll say, oh wow, that’s so beautiful.
29:42: Wow, where did you learn to do that, you know, and there’s this tonality of it, and there’s this like acceptance and like there’s this groundedness that the woman can bring that can hold that container almost, and they all start asking a question of like, oh, where did you learn to do that?
30:00: When you learn that, like, what did, where did you learn to do it?
30:03: Like, did they, did they show you to do it on the on the fridge?
30:07: Do you enjoy that?
30:08: Like just asking questions to like have them come up with their own conclusion, the kids probably gonna be like, oh no, I’m not supposed to do this.
30:17: You know, and so in the guy’s example, it’s like, oh no, you did tell me last week that you you wanted me to buy raw kaffir instead of, you know, whole kafir or whatever, you know what I mean, at the grocery store.
30:28: It’s not like you’re bad.
30:29: It’s like, hey, remember this, or can you do it or like can you do it this way?
30:34: Can you try this?
30:36: Yeah, it’s it’s future oriented too.
30:38: It’s not like focus on the past and all you screwed up.
30:40: It’s like, hey, like,.
30:43: Yeah, it’s, it’s constructive criticism is a good way to put it.
30:47: Nick does this so well with me, so like there’s a I leave stuff everywhere sometimes, like the scissors will never be in the right drawer or something like that, or I’ll put the cleaning supplies in the refrigerator, and Nick has made it a game, and I know I’m now but like by him making it a game or kind of laughing about it or getting curious, like, where, where are the sisters gonna be today?
31:07: It’s enough for it to be lovingly, it doesn’t want to get called out, but like acknowledge.
31:12: So the scissors are not where they’re supposed to be.
31:15: And it allows me to like, OK, I got to pay more attention, be more present as to like where I’m putting the scissors, and I get to make that decision versus he could be like, wait, the scissors are supposed to go in in the drawer every single time.
31:28: And I’m like, I would have been like, that energy is just so much more attacky.
31:32: And what you’re talking about is like, don’t come attacking because if anything, that’s immediately going to shut down their nervous system, that’s immediately going to help them spiral.
31:40: And if they’re not in a place.
31:42: Where they can receive that kind of whatever, they’re most likely gonna make something, it’s gonna make it worse.
31:48: It’s not gonna be helpful, and you’re talking about a loving, compassionate curiosity.
31:53: I’m like, oh, I see, it’s exactly what Alejandro said.
31:56: Yeah, Alejandro is like, you know, instead of fighting around that this is green, and he’s like, no babe, I swear that’s green, and then you’re you’re fighting, no, I swear it’s it’s it’s, it’s blue, like it should be blue.
32:07: The thing is like, oh, I can see that you see that that’s green, I see it as blue.
32:11: And like it’s more of like this love.
32:13: You can even feel it in the tone, but versus like there’s so much, I think as women sometimes we want to be right, we’re trying to protect ourselves and whatever that looks like, who needs not being met.
32:25: Yes, exactly.
32:26: And, and she also said don’t ask why questions.
32:28: Like, why did you do that?
32:29: She was like she said, what do you mean by that?
32:32: Yeah, it’s like what does that mean?
32:34: How does that make you feel?
32:37: what like open-ended questions, curious questions, yeah.
32:41: I mean there are some examples that I’ll use, there’s some like kind of simple rules that are really helpful.
32:45: Asking a man why he’s feeling something usually takes him into his head.
32:50: Totally.
32:50: So a really helpful distinction is that so many of us, if we’re living in our mask when we’re living in our head, you know, it’s kind of like living in our sympathetic nervous system too, like we don’t need to be there all the time, but a lot of us are.
33:01: We’re in problem solver mode and kind of hyper adrenaline focused.
33:05: And so, if you ask an analytical man, which most of us are, we like problem solving.
33:10: You ask him why he’s gonna go to like, hmm, oh, I’m feeling, I’m actually feeling something in my chest, like, you know, sadness or shame or a pit in my stomach, but now that you’re asking me why I’m feeling it, I’m trying to rationalize, yeah, in my head like what happened that could have created that like.
33:27: Like I can’t and most guys can’t really come up with like the words as to why they’re feeling it, like, I don’t know, like, so why usually goes to the head, how or what kind of questions, those questions ask a man to break bring himself down into his body, which is where his emotions live.
33:44: Right.
33:45: And so if you can ask more open-ended questions that would really be helpful too, that are like, what does that feel like?
33:51: How does that feel?
33:52: Where do you feel that?
33:53: What’s that like for you?
33:54: You know, just to like peek into their world and have them expand on it versus giving them kind of like a binary choice, like a yes or no question.
34:03: Even like leading questions aren’t.
34:05: I hate where you’re like, do you, do you find yourself that you feel this way or like you’re like you’re assuming and I think that’s also hard because people are trying, they don’t know how to go from like leading questions to open questions.
34:21: Yeah, that’s something.
34:22: I had to learn just from coaching because I was like I was going through this process of like, maybe this is something that’s coming up, whatever, but like, I can’t assume that I know what their experience is.
34:30: It’s a.
34:31: It’s a projection.
34:32: And so it’s so much better to be like a a what a how, which is why I always ask open open questions, but leading questions also lead them to be deciding on that what that is.
34:42: And it’s so hard unless you’re connected to intuition, like, actually, no, that’s not where I’m at at all.
34:48: It’s actually XYZ.
34:50: But most people, to your point, don’t know what I’m feeling, what’s really going on.
34:54: And so the guidance is so much more helpful.
34:56: It is helpful, yeah, but if you ever do find yourself asking a leading question, my my offering is just like, well, don’t ask a question, just say what you think is going on, you know, say what’s on the tip of your tongue.
35:08: Like, I think you’re angry about this.
35:10: I think you’re ashamed that your dad used to beat you up about this stuff, you know, do you think you’re angry about this?
35:15: Yeah, it’s like, yeah, it’s like.
35:17: yeah.
35:17: Yeah, so open-ended questions, try to avoid why questions, try to avoid putting someone in a corner with like they have to choose this answer or or even an answer at all, like, we talk, I’ve talked about this with Austin’s like, like, especially early on in our relationship, he would shut down and I’d be like, where did you just go?
35:36: Like, are you OK?
35:37: What’s happening?
35:38: And he wouldn’t know, he’d go right to his head.
35:40: So in so over time I really learned to be like, OK, I’m seeing your shutdown.
35:45: And I’m gonna give you space, and I wouldn’t even ask anymore because a lot of times like he wouldn’t know why, and he didn’t have an answer, you know, so, and I think we as women are like a lot, a lot of us are like, but I, I want to know like what’s happening, how can I, I think we’re also problem solvers, so we’re like, for sure, we’re also like, how can I fix you?
36:01: How can I make you feel better, like, there’s a lot of that too, for sure.
36:05: So I feel like it helps so much to let Hi process it himself, and I was like, it’s not about me, so it’s OK.
36:10: I’m not, I think too, it’s easy, and I think this happens on both sides, like, what did I do wrong?
36:16: What did I do to cause this?
36:17: How can I?
36:18: And I think we both fall into that trap.
36:20: But yeah, chances are if you’re listening to this podcast, like you you’ve like navigated this word codependence, you know, like if you’re an empath, you deal with this wrestle of Codependence, how can I be interdependent and stay within myself, also be fully expressed, but like not take other people’s crap on.
36:37: And a big hallmark of that is like thinking that you’re responsible for someone else’s experience, you know, for their actions, for their emotions.
36:44: So that actually happens to me and Rochelle’s relationship a lot.
36:47: We actually both do this.
36:49: So we’re a great mirror to each other, but But we’re like two ships in the night sometimes, we’re like we’re, we’ll be fighting about something or just, I wouldn’t say fighting, but like we’re we’re disagreement and we’re both kind of shut down and we’ll kind of get like silent or like kind of go do our thing for a little bit and we’re not really we’re actually both thinking that the other person’s mad at us, that they think we’re the we’re the problem in this issue, and so we internalize it, we think we’re the problem and it’s often I have to remind her like this is.
37:19: about you.
37:20: I’m angry at the situation.
37:21: To to your example earlier, I’m not angry at you.
37:24: I’m just happy to be angry at the situation that that I’m in this.
37:27: I don’t like being in this.
37:28: It’s not that you did something wrong to make me feel this way.
37:32: I hate when people try to tell me that they made me feel something like, you can’t make me feel something.
37:37: I choose internally to rationalize any action or event, and I internalize that as an emotion.
37:44: Like that’s something I have total control over and So that’s, that’s tough.
37:49: To call that out, it sounds like there’s like a sense of responsibility that you’ve taken though, that I think a lot of people, not just men, everyone can step into as like, I think when you’re kind of living in this unawareness, you just see what they’re doing to you.
38:03: You don’t realize that there’s also a sense of owner or own responsibility to dive deeper and be like, hey, what’s, I’m in this.
38:10: How am I choosing to feel this way?
38:11: What’s really coming up for me?
38:12: And it’s beautiful that you’re, you guys are learning that and you are learning that, and I’m learning that and you’re Yeah, how to take your responsibility for your parts.
38:20: And I think the skip step is not having that conversation.
38:23: Like, even your example used of your client with with the baby in the diaper, and she’s probably getting triggered because she wants him to be present.
38:31: Like, it’s not about him doing the diaper wrong, it’s him not being in the presence, you know.
38:35: And he gets triggered by not doing it right.
38:37: Like, I can’t do anything right, and the shame cycle starts.
38:40: And if you don’t talk about that and say like, oh, it’s not about you, it’s my thing, that’s where I think so.
38:47: and shut down or they come in conflict.
38:50: Such a good call because that’s exactly the core of what was actually going on.
39:15: It wasn’t about the diapers.
39:15: It was actually that they both felt deeply disconnected.
39:15: It’s like the cap.
39:15: It’s about the flowers.
39:15: Is it’s not about the dishes, it’s about the trash.
39:16: You can do.
39:16: As much trash as you want, it’s not about that.
39:18: Yeah, so good.
39:19: Well, thank you for all of that.
39:22: It’s been so helpful and I’m so excited to get the feedback from this episode.
39:26: Now I want to make this a little bit more about you.
39:28: So we ask all of our guests a very special question, and it’s related to the podcast.
39:34: It’s, where are you craving or finding yourself to be more fully expressed in your life?
39:41: It can be life, relationships, business, anything that you feel cold.
39:44: I think creativity.
39:46: You always say this.
39:48: Yeah, you’re always like, I want more creativity.
39:50: I want more.
39:52: It’s a bit of a repetitive cycle.
39:54: I, I told myself when I took my first corporate job, you know, I felt like I was kind of failing in a way cause like I was just taking a job when I really wanted to do the entrepreneurial thing and work at a startup, something really cool and fun and really meaningful.
40:08: I took a job at Grubhub doing account management and I remember telling my girlfriend at the time, I was like, I don’t want to take this job, but if I take it, just make Sure that I keep playing guitar.
40:18: Make sure I play guitar like at least once a week, and I keep that creative endeavor, that creative side of me, because that’s so such a deep part of my soul, and I gotta say I I didn’t keep up playing guitar very much, you know, like I did a little bit, but like I’ve lost that part of myself and so yeah, how do you feel to creatively express yourself?
40:37: I know you have different ways, so yeah, now it’s it’s like creativity when I create like I created this really cool post the other day on Instagram, like that was really fun for me to create.
40:45: It was like a, I acted out what it would be like for a guy to get a promotion but not feel worthy of it basically, and perform really well, but I was like more happy that I created the video.
40:55: It was fun to do and act it out.
40:57: And so I think for me in in work and in life, it’s creative, creative expression and just having fun with what I’m doing, you know, the teaching style that I do just like make it fun and engaging and not be work anymore, you know.
41:12: That’s a great one.
41:13: So beautiful.
41:14: Yeah.
41:15: Yeah we’ll hold the vision for you.
41:17: Next time you come on and tell us all about that.
41:20: Yeah, we should have a painting or something.
41:22: Yeah, I mean, he, he loves that he’s really good at drawing.
41:26: I know that’s what he said that the other night, yeah, the other day, I think we were at, where were we, I think it was like maybe a few months ago we were at Hoggo’s and I drew mine and then Quentin threw his.
41:33: I was like, yeah, yours is way better than mine.
41:35: I like not in a bad way, but you’re just like so much more colorful.
41:38: You had more intention and it was just So beautiful and I was like, not me.
41:41: I have all the painting tools, we should use them.
41:43: They’ve been sitting for a while.
41:45: Yeah.
41:45: I’m so in, yeah, I’m coming over, sounds good.
41:48: Good.
41:49: Yeah.
41:50: Thank you so much for being on the podcast, and the last thing we just wanted to ask is, where can people find you?
41:56: Where’s the best place to like contact you and get in touch with you and work with you?
42:00: Instagram is a great place.
42:01: I’m on LinkedIn as well, but just find me at Instagram at Qwilliams with 2 underscores at the end.
42:07: I’m probably the first guy that to pop up, I think.
42:10: And then our website is Q-williams.com.
42:12: I have a ton of free resources out there.
42:14: If you’re an athlete, there’s a ton of stuff.
42:15: There’s if you’re just a man that’s navigating emotional intelligence, there’s a great resource on there called Adjust your anger at a process and work through your anger.
42:24: Quick little tutorial video on that and a quick little mini course.
42:28: And I’m actually, I’ve been thinking like I’ve been having more conversations just around around this men’s stuff and I’ve been inspired to bring back my men’s group.
42:35: So if, if my men’s group is up on my website at the time of this podcast, check it out.
42:41: Yeah.
42:42: You won’t be disappointed, that’s for sure.
42:44: We already know that.
42:45: Yeah, I know you’re such a great space holder.
42:48: I’m going to say that and a good, how do I say, reflector, like you reflect back what is really helpful to hear.
42:54: So I think, yeah, I experienced that in friendship.
42:56: Thank you.
42:57: Yeah, thank you.
42:58: Well, thank you so much for coming on.
42:59: We love you.
43:00: Thanks for having me you guys.
43:02: Thank you so much for tuning in.
43:03: We really appreciate you being here.
43:05: If you enjoyed this episode, we’d be grateful if you could leave us a review and share it with a friend.
43:11: Also, we would love to hear from you.
43:13: Reach out to us on Instagram and let us know where you feel inspired to express yourself as you embrace this next era.
43:20: We are here to support you and encourage you.
43:23: See you on the next one.
0:03: We are your hosts, Samantha and Karenna.
0:06: This is a show where we invite you into your fullest expressed self and life, relationships, and business.
0:11: We believe that if you crave more, you are meant for more.
0:14: There is room for all of us to be fully expressed.
0:17: Along with the show, we’ve created a virtual community to connect you with fellow listeners.
0:22: Make sure to check out the fully expressed community membership.
0:25: You’ll find the link to join in the show notes and on our website.
0:28: So excited to see you there.
0:30: Enjoy this new episode.
0:34: Hi, and welcome back to another episode of the Fully expressed podcast.
0:39: We’re so excited to have Quentin Williams with us today.
0:42: He is one of our good friends.
0:45: He is a mental performance coach and facilitator for men and athletes.
0:50: His mission is helping high performers build confidence and embody healthy masculinity by training in the often misunderstood science of emotional intelligence.
1:01: Thanks for being here.
1:02: Thanks for having me, gals.
1:05: I’m honored.
1:06: It’s so fun because this is the 2nd time that you’re on the podcast.
1:10: You were a part of the podcast launch.
1:12: I was on the podcast.
1:13: I was half of the podcast, so now I’m full podcast.
1:16: Yeah, it is all about you.
1:19: It was so good though, that day.
1:20: Oh my gosh, yeah, the launch party was so fun and you and Rochelle together were amazing.
1:25: Yeah.
1:25: Thank you.
1:26: And now it’s just you.
1:27: Yeah.
1:28: I think it’s so fun because like you’re not only like one of our best friends, you know, we get to see you all the time and we also get to highlight you and be in this room with you.
1:35: So yeah, thank you so much for being here.
1:37: Thank you.
1:38: It’s an honor.
1:39: It means a lot.
1:40: I’ll have you as many times as you want to come back.
1:42: Yeah.
1:44: Next week.
1:45: He only quitting for the next 8 episodes.
1:48: He’s gonna do a whole master class, step by step recording.
1:51: I mean, there’s a lot of people who would benefit from it, so, oh yeah, for sure they’ll be, and I think what’s what I love about your work and that I think is so important, I think a lot of women listen to this podcast and You specifically work with men.
2:04: So, and I think there is this desire for, how do I say this?
2:10: Women want their men to grow, whatever that looks like, where I know men are also craving growth and connection and depth that you’re bringing, so it’s just such, it’s what you’re doing and what I’m saying is just so important.
2:21: I feel like you’re at the beginning of that and you’re just gonna continue to see that evolve.
2:25: So thank you for what you’re doing for men.
2:28: And the men that we’re in relationships with, right?
2:31: So a lot of the listeners here are women, and we do get some men that listen to the podcast.
2:36: However, like, you know, one of the topics that we want to hit in on is like, and I think more men can relate to this, as well as maybe women can recognize that they’re in relationship with men as well that are facing this, is I want to talk about how is it, or how, how, I guess, how is it, you can say that you’re in a relationship with someone that is high achieve.
2:57: What is it like to be with a woman that seems like they’re on their masculine and when it comes into their business side, but then you also see them in their feminine.
3:05: So what does that dynamic look like or feel like?
3:08: First of all, it’s like such a gift to witness a woman in both her feminine and also in her masculine to be to witness my partner doing so many good things, being so dedicated and focused and driven.
3:21: I mean, it’s very sexy for me, like I love that.
3:24: And there’s nothing greater for me than to be able to have her trust me enough to relax into her feminine, and to let down her guard and as she would say, melt into me.
3:36: Like that’s the greatest gift.
3:38: I feel like I can give her at the same rate.
3:40: And so it’s, you know, I’m a big believer, a firm believer in both and I don’t think that we need to choose whether we show up in our masculine or feminine.
3:48: I think it’s a gift to embody both and.
3:52: Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s definitely a challenge for most men as cause as you alluded to, more and more men are finding themselves in that place, you know, men are used to being in our culture, the high performers, you know, I would.
4:04: Yeah, yeah, the, the thing, yeah, there’s there’s kind of two schools of like men’s work and men’s emotional intelligence work if you call it that.
4:13: One is like helping men access their feminine and access their emotions and access their ability to like.
4:18: Open up, which so many women want more men to do, and more men do want to do, they just don’t know really have the tools or you don’t really know how to do it the right way, and they don’t want to screw it up.
4:27: And then you also have like a school of thought in men’s work that kind of does the opposite, like they want men to focus on their faith, finances, fitness, and right, right, like those like kind of key pillars of like what people think is masculine, so to speak,, and I don’t think we have to choose between those two.
4:43: I think we can have all of that and be a very integrated man.
4:46: I think that’s like my best examples, you know, of what a man looks like embodied that when I was growing up.
4:52: And so I’m, I’m trying to, like, in my work, I try to embody it as much as I can.
4:57: I’m not perfect, but like I try to live that so that other guys can see that cause I think that’s the greatest gift as a man you can get as a an example.
5:05: You know, you don’t want to hear someone talk about something unless they actually walk it.
5:09: Yeah.
5:10: What are some of the, the blocks or the resistance to getting to that place of integrated integrated man, which I really like that you use that, right?
5:18: It’s like the integrated man.
5:19: It’s like the yes and the multiple, the multi-dimensional man, that I can be all the things kind of man that have access to multiple part parts of you.
5:28: Yeah.
5:28: What is some of that resistance that you’ve seen men come up against?
5:32: , well, first off, I’ll say something.
5:34: thing that might be a little controversial, but like, I think a lot of men would like relate to this is as a man, I support and I, I love my woman.
5:43: I love her for like what she can bring and how she can show up in her masculine, but I don’t think a lot of men are like, they find it really sexy that their partner can bring home a bunch of money and provide for them.
5:53: You know what I mean?
5:55: Like that’s not the the drawing factor.
5:58: Like it’s, it’s about seeing a woman who can show up in a masculine way, not as a man, but like in a masculine way to like do what she says she’s gonna do, like be determined, be focused, and show that she’s trustworthy.
6:10: It’s one of the most valuable traits is like you want to be able to trust the person that you’re with.
6:14: Yeah.
6:14: She says she does.
6:15: What’s that?
6:16: You say you use something.
6:18: Exactly, yeah, yeah, you follow through with it, and I’m so grateful to be with a partner that’s really good friends with you guys that like does that, does that really well, and she teaches me that consistently as well.
6:28: I’ve traditionally been a Very disciplined person, but in many ways, I think actually diving more into my feminine and learning more about my feminine and my emotions has allowed me a little bit of a loose leash when it comes to being disciplined, candidly.
6:41: Like I’ve, and I’ve seen a lot of people in like my work in my space, talking about men’s work, and I’ve seen people kind of fall, like, go too far on the other side of the pendulum, so to speak, and kind of get stuck there.
6:52: You know, the same way you can get stuck in your masculine, like you can also get stuck in your emotions.
6:57: And I, I don’t think any of us want that.
6:59: We want I feel like we can have agility, basically, like show up when we need to step up and then open up when we need to.
7:06: Yeah, and I think that’s what ideally most women want.
7:10: They want to feel that connection that oftentimes they don’t feel with a man that’s like too far in the in the like, I’m just gonna go work out and get the work done.
7:19: And then, or they’re too and they’re feminine and that’s also unattractive to be in that like kind of little boy energy or where you feel like you’re in the mother, the mother energy.
7:27: Yeah, exactly.
7:28: And that’s hard, I think, to To kind of peel back where you’re talking about.
7:31: So a lot of people are doing the work, right?
7:33: And a lot of the times the work starts for men softening.
7:36: And so they’re on the path of, well, I’m softening, I’m, I’m connecting to my emotions.
7:41: I’m connecting to my intuition.
7:43: I’m learning how to flow, I’m learning how to surrender.
7:46: And so I think for women, I will say like, be aware that you could be meeting them anywhere on the journey, but you’re also saying like, for men, this is an invitation for you to find balance in that.
7:57: And it’s hard because like in my own personal journey, I’ve had To swing the pendulum really far to learn the benefits of being in my feminine.
8:05: And then I also had to learn the pendulum of the strengths of being in the masculine, and you just got to find your balance in both.
8:10: And so I think for men also recognizing maybe like, where are you on that, or like, maybe you’re halfway in between, or maybe you’re just leaning more right or more left in that.
8:20: And at the same time, it’s like, I think women do crave that.
8:23: They just don’t know how to say that.
8:25: They’re like, I, I want to know you deeper.
8:28: I want to feel you.
8:30: Like I want the depths of you.
8:31: I want, I don’t want it I want it.
8:39: And then we also want the man that’s gonna be like, Hey honey, this is what we’re gonna do, this is what we got going on this weekend, like here’s some direction.
8:46: We’re like they can pick you up and throw you against the wall.
8:48: I don’t know, like in a sexual way, not a violent way.
8:51: Yeah, exactly.
8:52: We’re like action and like up against the wall and what’s up Michelle told me that this morning.
9:00: And I think I would also say like, OK, so we’re talking masculine founding can look differently in business dynamics to relationship dynamics.
9:07: And sometimes you can say, well, in my business, I show up this way and it works.
9:11: Yeah.
9:11: And I think our relationships, our businesses can be relationships as well.
9:15: And so what is, what have you found the dance and like, OK, how do I so when, when do you soften in relationship, like come home versus, you know, being And you’re more masculine in business, you know, what was, how’s that dance or maybe the blend of both or do they look different?
9:31: Do they look similar?
9:32: Yeah.
9:33: Well, I mean, I, I do think, first off, I think that like during COVID, we lost a really functional part of our society which was the commute.
9:41: Yeah, the commute between home and work and just like that 30 minutes sometimes it’s an hour for people to just sit in their car and do what they want to do, you know what I mean?
9:50: I kind of have that that that buffer between work and life, you know, to check back in with themselves.
9:56: I don’t think people realized they were doing this, but like they love time in their car.
9:59: It’s like you’re in therapy office, you know, do what you gotta do a friend that you, yeah.
10:09: Yeah, and I think there’s there’s a masculine part of all of us that loves kind of going out, adventuring, and then coming back home, you know.
10:16: And so I think we can all do that in different ways, but in COVID era now, post COVID, we’re all working from home, essentially, you know, we’re all kind of in the same environment, whereas more traditional roles would have more of the more of the women at home and more of the men and out and about and adventuring, and so that separation, I think, can be really helpful.
10:35: And so like creating that in your own way is good, is something that I think is helpful to do.
10:41: You know, for me, like I kind of create my own commute.
10:43: I go on a walk every morning after breakfast and like I have to tell Rochelle like I I’m basically not available for like kind of chit chat, like even at lunch, like a little bit once in a while, but like, I need to be in work mode.
10:55: I need to kind of imagine myself out on a hunt right now or like out doing like man stuff, you know, and being in the dirt and getting dirty and like just doing.
11:05: Doing guy stuff, you know what I mean?
11:07: Cause I think that’s that’s enriching for us as men, and a lot of us have lost touch with that as guys, you know, we’ve lost touch with that, you know, kind of dirty, sweaty, you know, messy kind of part of ourselves, that’s more adventurous and so I, I think, you know, we need to go out and create that on our own in different ways, how we need to do that and then add a little bit of a buffer between that business space and home life.
11:28: Because, you know, coming back home,, you know, you don’t wanna be bringing the pressure and the stress of work back home.
11:36: You wanna be able to, as a man and as a woman, to be able to come home and let all that go, like literally let it go and say, OK, tomorrow is a new a new day, this is a new page, and right now what really needs my attention is a new version of me.
11:51: Like my partner or my home needs a new version of me, a different version of me, and I think that reset button is really good, you know, to get you into that.
11:59: And how do you call that emotional agility is what I call that, it’s like kind of being able to, you know, like if, if anybody, any of the listeners like ever played Madden or like a big football game like you you have like agility of speed, you have power and like to be able to be really agile on your feet and kind of dance between.
12:15: The two and kind of those two sides of yourselves, I think that’s powerful and potent, but you kind of need to build in those little buffer points to kind of get there.
12:24: I was just going to ask, how do you and Rochelle do that because you’re both entrepreneurs who work from home, and I know sometimes when you’re an entrepreneur, it’s really hard to shut it off at a certain time because you’re the boss.
12:34: So what are some of the things you guys do, or maybe you do to create that boundary of like, OK, we’re done for the day or I’m done for the day?
12:43: Yeah.
12:43: It’s one of been one of my biggest struggles, biggest struggles, cause if you’re a high performing guy, like a lot of the guys I work with, a lot of former athletes that are like really trying to meet that same level of success in the real world, like, and you know, I’ve I work with women too that are executives and like entrepreneurs and like they have the same kind of thing, like they’re working until 9 p.m. sometimes and There’s no real time for themselves or for their partner or for like real intimacy, cause they’re not really present for the things that they really want to be present for.
13:10: So it’s, it’s stressful, and I feel for a lot of people I’ve, I experienced that myself,, but I think, you know, it’s, it’s really a matter of, of trying to let go and like remind yourself that there’s always gonna be more work.
13:23: You can have rituals like make sure that you you actually before every day you actually have like a A simple to do list that’s actually reasonable, accessible, and like, you know, like I’m kind of a, I’m a bit, I’m not the best with that.
13:37: I often have like a to do list of like 5 or 6 things and I’m I I’m like still hoping maybe I’ll get like to 7 or 8 or 9 too if I’m lucky, and I only get like 3 done, you know, it’s like I should have just started with 3.
13:49: I feel like that’s so common though to to write too many things.
13:52: Yeah, I think.
13:53: Overplan anyone in their masculine.
13:55: I think that’s important to know that both women and men both have masculine feminine dynamics.
14:00: And if you’re leaning really hard into the masculine, you love your to do list.
14:04: You love things that feel really good to check it off because our ego feels good, you know, in some ways.
14:09: So I think that can also just, that’s good for anyone that’s listening what you just said.
14:14: Definitely, and I think like there’s like the ego part of our masculine, there’s the ego part.
14:18: feminine too, you know, you hear like toxic femininity or toxic masculinity thrown around, you’re starting to hear more people talk about like, it’s not just men that are like are experiencing toxic toxic masculinity.
14:30: We also have toxic femininity and like we all have versions of that.
14:33: We have shadow sides of our feminine like a man that’s like can’t can’t manage his emotions or is like getting fiercely angry over the smallest things, that’s that’s a man in his toxic feminine.
14:44: is shadow feminine, and for a man to be overworking or to be so focused on that 8 item to do list, that’s that’s toxic, that’s like toxic to him.
14:54: You know, it’s that’s a shadow that’s trying to prove something to his ego, trying to make himself look good or feel good or fill a void, you know, so that’s where you go to the deeper work and you try to analyze that, dissect that, feel that, and see what’s underneath it.
15:09: So that you can kind of heal a little boy within you that needs affirmation or needs to feel like he’s doing a good job, and he’s doing enough.
15:16: So you can turn that into more of a healthy masculine, which like a healthy masculine man can like acknowledge his success in the day, he can like be grateful for what he has and he can show up in the moment like.
15:26: Those are all really powerful masculine traits.
15:30: I want to bring it back into like, in moments where, which I was really beautiful, in moments where you get triggered in relationship, you know, I think we all think that everything is a mirror in relationship or showing us something, and I think talking to that concept would be so helpful to anyone that’s listening, but also just to men.
15:48: I’m like, I’ve seen your content on this, like, hey, you get triggered by this, so you find yourself angry, you just mentioned the word angry.
15:55: Can you walk us through, like, what can that experience be for a man and how can they work through that?
15:59: For example, one of my favorite clients that I’ve ever worked with, we’ve been working together for about a year now, but like within the first couple months he like shot me a message and he was like, hey, like I’m finding myself getting defensive, like when my wife, like, just.
16:13: Notices some things or like tells me like I’m doing something wrong or not the way that she wants it to be, and I get really defensive and I get angry, and it’s like, well, we’d already kind of worked through like what kind of brings up some of that emotion.
16:24: Like it’s usually for him it’s like some toxic stuff, shame in the past that he’s been holding on to or hasn’t been speaking up the way he’s needed to and held back his truth basically for a couple of years, finally starting to express it, but he’s still finding that like, you know, he’s triggered triggered, you know, I’m still having my experience I’m like I’m like.
16:43: Yeah, like, you’re, you’re still a guy, like you’re still human, you know, you’re still living life and so good, you know, like good, you have kind of Plato to work with here and you can continue to evolve.
16:53: And and so I, I asked him a second question.
16:55: I was like, well, like what could maybe this defensiveness be trying to teach you?
16:59: Often when we’re getting angry, we’re actually anger serves two purposes, was a primal purpose of like getting big and angry and defensive to defend my turf, to defend my my loved ones.
17:11: And that’s primal for a man.
17:12: That’s probably yeah yeah yeah, good, good clarification.
17:17: I mean, I see women need to get angry too.
17:19: Rochelle needs to get angry more.
17:21: I tell her all the time, like she feels it, but she doesn’t feel like she can really express it because a lot of her life she was sort of shameed for feeling any sort of emotion, especially anger, you know, that was kind of my past too and so like we kind of mirror each other a lot.
17:35: So when I see her not.
17:36: emotion, I’m really talking to myself.
17:37: I’m like, speak up if you’re angry, say it, you know, because that’s a boundary.
17:43: Anger is not necessarily wrong, but it can be ego that’s talking, so you can be holding a boundary which is not your ego, that’s just that’s your primal nature.
17:52: You need to get angry to hold a boundary, you know.
17:54: But sometimes we’re not protecting our boundaries, sometimes our anger is protecting.
17:59: ego, and what I mean by that is, our ego is always worried about how things look, or how we are perceived or afraid of failure.
18:08: It’s all rooted in fear, and it’s all rooted in separation.
18:11: So if you’re getting angry and you’re getting defensive in situations, ask yourself, could I be feeling something that’s a little deeper, which is probably one of the three emotions, which is like, I’m ashamed of something, like you’re pointing out something that I actually know is true, and I’m ashamed that like I did this wrong and Like, I’m ashamed of that, and I’ve been doing this wrong for a long time, and I don’t want to really admit it, so I’m just gonna get mad at you right now, because that’s easier, you know, than admitting again that I screwed up.
18:37: You know, how many guys can relate to that?
18:38: How many women can say I can yeah.
18:40: I was like, that’s always my internal conversation when it’s like, what’s wrong?
18:44: Why are you mad?
18:44: I’m like, it’s not you.
18:46: I swear.
18:47: I know I’m embarrassed or I’m ashamed or I’m guilty.
18:50: Like, the truth is like more of me being mad at me, but it’s coming out as me being mad at.
18:56: Then, yeah, and it’s always just like, OK, it’s not you, promise.
19:00: I said that I haven’t said this one thing and you’re reflecting it back to me and I’m, this is just a whole process, but it’s, I’m glad you’re walking, breaking this down because people don’t recognize that, right?
19:10: They get defensive, they say, whatever, and then they da da da da da and they shut down or walk away or don’t want to, or they are expressive about it, but they don’t realize, well, where is that really coming from?
19:21: Yeah, and so like let’s take that example.
19:23: shame is the one the emotion where.
19:24: on for now.
19:25: Take, take an example, like, you know, my client, for instance, he feels ashamed that he’s been told to do this, like change the diaper a certain way, you know, like 10 times and keep screwing it up, you know, he’s just not being present enough, he’s stuck in maybe work mode or isn’t paying enough attention, he’s just ashamed that he’s he’s doing things wrong again, and he’s not showing up in the way that he wants to and so he, here’s the key here is like, it’s one thing to notice that he’s feeling it, another thing to then do something with that emotion, like actually feel it in like.
19:53: Process it and maybe bring it up to his partner.
19:56: It’s a whole other thing to dump it on his partner like it’s her fault, you know, and like, talk through it with them and like sort through it with their partner.
20:04: That’s that I think can maybe go too far, right?
20:07: Like you don’t want to dump all your stuff on your partner and like all your insecurities and all the all the shame that you have.
20:12: That’s where I think it’s really helpful for guys to be able to have other guys in their corner, friends, or it can be other females, doesn’t matter.
20:18: It’s just like having people that you can talk to besides just your partner.
20:22: About what’s kind of going on, you know, because that kind of creates it creates a situation where often the partner doesn’t have a choice whether to just be here and take it or like work through with you or not, because you’re the only resource that that man has, you know, so that was a big kind of eye opener for me is like, I need to be able to go to many different places to kind of get my needs met emotionally and process things and I also need to be able to do that well with myself, you know, but I do think that obviously comm like, hey, I’m finding myself getting angry right now, you know, but I realize right now as I’m feeling it, I’m actually ashamed that like I’ve done this so many times.
20:59: I need to figure this out for myself.
21:01: I’m gonna work on it.
21:03: You don’t need to worry about it, honey, but like, you know, I just want you to know where I’m at.
21:06: I’m sorry I got angry, really feeling this.
21:09: I’m gonna go take care of it, you know, I think that’s a responsible way to handle it versus like looking for almost like therapy is what it turns into from experience.
21:20: I from the past, yeah, I mean, all of us, I think, yeah, and I think women also have a more comfortability going to one another for things like that versus men.
21:28: Like you’re saying, I think they have a really hard time going to other men and being like, I’m feeling ashamed, you know, or whatever it might be.
21:35: Can you pull that thread though?
21:36: Like, what can we do to invite you invite men to feel more open to sharing with other men?
21:42: Because I think there is this natural, I’m a man, I’m independent, I can figure it out on my own.
21:47: I, I don’t know what you guys.
21:48: Can do.
21:49: That’s a good question.
21:50: Not unless, even you, like as a man, like, not just us, like I think that’s a constant thing, you know, I’m gonna go work it out, go do something on my own, go for a walk, and they just kind of sit in it, but you’re saying like, it’s actually so important to have other men in your corner that can support you.
22:07: Yeah.
22:08: A lot of guys don’t realize how much they need that until they try they have it, yeah.
22:12: Yeah, until they have it, then you’re like, oh wow, I’ve been missing this.
22:16: I did.
22:17: No, this was something I needed.
22:19: And I don’t know, I mean, a history lesson helps, you know, like learning about how we’ve lost our touch with other guys like could be helpful.
22:27: I could share a little bit about that.
22:28: Also just like actually experiencing it, like having a guy that calls you and asks you how you’re doing and like asks a question a little bit deeper, like, OK, well how you’re really doing, you know, having those kinds of friends.
22:39: So if you’re a guy listening or even a woman listening like just like following up with the guys a little bit, checking in with the guys.
22:45: Cause usually their first answer is not what they actually mean or what they feel, cause guys just kind of carry that burden.
22:50: They think they have to hold it alone and it’s often a very silent burden.
22:54: But a history lesson for for everyone here is like, this is really pretty groundbreaking for me is like, if you think about it, like primally, let’s go back to primal stuff, like way back in the day, most civilizations,, most women were hanging out together, like you mentioned, much more communal in general, but like men also had that.
23:13: To.
23:14: We had going out for a hunt we had initiation rites, like we had all sorts of processes in mankind’s history to initiate men, to learn from your elders, for elders to learn lessons from younger boys that are like lighting up and so full of joy, you know, like you learn so much from each other by being around each other and supporting one another, you know, to get a hunt done, you know, and kill a massive animal, like you need the whole crew and you need it to be working in unison.
23:42: And but there’s also a lot of downtime on a hunt.
23:45: There’s a lot of time to talk about what’s going on, you know, at home or on the home front or internally.
23:50: So, you know, that was really the way that men taught each other how to show up as men, you know, what they believed was masculinity.
23:58: And so, and then you had, of course, rites of passage, which were much more formal ways to do that.
24:03: Now we have bar mitzvahs.
24:05: communion or what is it called communion confirmation confirmation, yeah, you know, but like for, for someone who’s secular, like when do you when do you turn into a man when you’re 18, you know, like when you get married, that’s becoming later and later these days, you know, when you buy your first home, when you get your first car, like, what, what is the real sign of masculinity of like Becoming a man, there’s no stamp of approval anymore.
24:30: A lot of guys don’t get the the the sex talk anymore.
24:33: A lot of guys don’t learn how to shave from their dad, like, so one of the big questions to ask is, is like, where did you learn how to be a man?
24:40: And a lot of us learned this from like TV more and more at YouTube these days, more and more it could be unfortunately porn and like different outlets on the internet.
24:49: You know, there’s a lot of faulty narratives out there around what it means to be a man.
24:54: So that’s a helpful lesson just to notice like this this is something we’ve lost on ourselves, is like this connection to each other as guys, and that is one thing that I think sports really does really well in many cases, is it puts you around other guys that are your peers, you’re working together, you’re learning teamwork, you’re, you have some some role models, you have some mentors, you have a great coach, you know, ideally a really good coach.
25:17: Who sees you, who loves you, who can pat you on the back, but also, you know, like lay the hammer down when he needs to.
25:22: Yeah, and like some some guys have a really good example of that, but unfortunately there’s a lot of bad coaches out there, a lot of bad examples of what masculinity is.
25:31: I’ve been around tons of them, but I’ve also been around a few coaches that like really showed me what it means to be an integrated man, you know,, I’ve been talking for a while here, but I think that that lesson of how we’ve essentially lost our Deep connection in our men’s groups and our men’s communities to industrialization now, like we’ve replaced that with, we’ve replaced that with podcasts with Joe Rogan, which I love Joe.
25:55: Like, we need more than an audio in our ear, we need a real person, you know, and there aren’t as many role models, I think, as a fully integrated men.
26:04: Like there’s a lot of even Joe Rogan, I see, he’s coming more into his feminine a little bit.
26:09: I’ve noticed over the last couple of years.
26:11: But definitely for a long time, he was that like masculine man, you know, and it’s like, but we want to see, I would love to see more men, like all of our, like you, like our partners that are trying to step into that integrated, like being able to to have that softness, but also step into their power.
26:29: Yeah.
26:29: Yeah.
26:30: 100% more examples.
26:31: That makes me think about a question for women.
26:33: What can women do to support men in their most integrated men menness?
26:39: Madness madness.
26:42: I mean we had one guest on who talked about women tend, she does couples coaching, and she talked about how women tend to emasculate men, but very subtly.
26:50: So like criticize, so it made me think of the partner’s wife being like you didn’t do the diaper right, but like the way we approach it is like an accusation or we say something as a joke, but it’s not really a joke.
27:02: You’re like kind of giving them a poke, but you’re like, I’m kidding, I’m kidding.
27:06: It wasn’t really a poke, but you’re like, oh, it’s it’s a poke and you can get real with yourself like, yeah, I definitely threw out that poke.
27:13: Yeah, that was a poke.
27:15: You’re right.
27:16: Well, I’ve got gotten this question a lot.
27:18: I think that the best answer I have is usually,, in 5 years of marketing to men, I’ve learned quite a few things of what not to say, what not to call out for women to say just as a marker just talking to a guy, just talking to any guy, whether you’re a man or a woman.
27:33: You don’t want to tell them that they’re broken or they need to be fixed.
27:38: That’s usually poking at a trigger, at a deeper core wound and So like anytime a man feels like he’s doing something wrong, he kind of feels like he’s being reprimanded by his father or his mother, you know, and it’s probably ripping up something of like, I feel broken, or if I don’t feel enough, and there’s maybe some father wounding there, which is usually around that feeling of not feeling enough or not inadequate.
28:01: And so like, try not to trigger the emotion of shame, if you could avoid it, you know, try not to say something that could be easily construed as like, oh I fucked up.
28:10: Doing terrible, you know, I’m, I’m gonna lose you or I’m I’m not good enough for you, or just, yeah, so what what I think can be really helpful is, is instead of accusations or like statements, you can ask questions.
28:24: Questions are one of the most powerful ways for us to see ourselves more clearly.
28:28: , you’ll see a lot of, I’ve seen mothers do this, and it’s just like, it really hits my heart.
28:32: I lost my mom when I was younger, so like, usually when I see a movie or I’m seeing a woman like with their child, like out in the back.
28:37: And I see a woman like talking so gently and lovingly to their son, it’s just like really hits me.
28:44: If there’s a topic I’ll get emotional about it’s it’s that, because like there’s that unconditional love that every man wants from his partner.
28:52: You’re not really gonna get it from anyone besides your mom.
28:55: I mean, realistically besides your blood, you know what I mean?
28:57: Who’s gonna care if you completely unconditionally, like, I mean, that’s why divorce rates are what they are, like we, we don’t, it’s not how relationships work.
29:05: Right, but,, you, every man wants that kind of feeling.
29:10: They want that kind of sense of like, oh, like you got me, you know what I mean?
29:14: and and everything’s OK, like you’re not wrong, I’m not judging you, you know, that’s such a deep warm feeling for a man to feel and a way that you can do that that I’ve seen a lot of women do with their kids is like, if they find their kid is like, I don’t know, like beating a hammer on a wall or something like that or like, Drawing on the refrigerator, they won’t like scold them.
29:36: They won’t say like, stop doing that.
29:37: I told you a million times, stop doing that.
29:39: They’ll say, oh wow, that’s so beautiful.
29:42: Wow, where did you learn to do that, you know, and there’s this tonality of it, and there’s this like acceptance and like there’s this groundedness that the woman can bring that can hold that container almost, and they all start asking a question of like, oh, where did you learn to do that?
30:00: When you learn that, like, what did, where did you learn to do it?
30:03: Like, did they, did they show you to do it on the on the fridge?
30:07: Do you enjoy that?
30:08: Like just asking questions to like have them come up with their own conclusion, the kids probably gonna be like, oh no, I’m not supposed to do this.
30:17: You know, and so in the guy’s example, it’s like, oh no, you did tell me last week that you you wanted me to buy raw kaffir instead of, you know, whole kafir or whatever, you know what I mean, at the grocery store.
30:28: It’s not like you’re bad.
30:29: It’s like, hey, remember this, or can you do it or like can you do it this way?
30:34: Can you try this?
30:36: Yeah, it’s it’s future oriented too.
30:38: It’s not like focus on the past and all you screwed up.
30:40: It’s like, hey, like,.
30:43: Yeah, it’s, it’s constructive criticism is a good way to put it.
30:47: Nick does this so well with me, so like there’s a I leave stuff everywhere sometimes, like the scissors will never be in the right drawer or something like that, or I’ll put the cleaning supplies in the refrigerator, and Nick has made it a game, and I know I’m now but like by him making it a game or kind of laughing about it or getting curious, like, where, where are the sisters gonna be today?
31:07: It’s enough for it to be lovingly, it doesn’t want to get called out, but like acknowledge.
31:12: So the scissors are not where they’re supposed to be.
31:15: And it allows me to like, OK, I got to pay more attention, be more present as to like where I’m putting the scissors, and I get to make that decision versus he could be like, wait, the scissors are supposed to go in in the drawer every single time.
31:28: And I’m like, I would have been like, that energy is just so much more attacky.
31:32: And what you’re talking about is like, don’t come attacking because if anything, that’s immediately going to shut down their nervous system, that’s immediately going to help them spiral.
31:40: And if they’re not in a place.
31:42: Where they can receive that kind of whatever, they’re most likely gonna make something, it’s gonna make it worse.
31:48: It’s not gonna be helpful, and you’re talking about a loving, compassionate curiosity.
31:53: I’m like, oh, I see, it’s exactly what Alejandro said.
31:56: Yeah, Alejandro is like, you know, instead of fighting around that this is green, and he’s like, no babe, I swear that’s green, and then you’re you’re fighting, no, I swear it’s it’s it’s, it’s blue, like it should be blue.
32:07: The thing is like, oh, I can see that you see that that’s green, I see it as blue.
32:11: And like it’s more of like this love.
32:13: You can even feel it in the tone, but versus like there’s so much, I think as women sometimes we want to be right, we’re trying to protect ourselves and whatever that looks like, who needs not being met.
32:25: Yes, exactly.
32:26: And, and she also said don’t ask why questions.
32:28: Like, why did you do that?
32:29: She was like she said, what do you mean by that?
32:32: Yeah, it’s like what does that mean?
32:34: How does that make you feel?
32:37: what like open-ended questions, curious questions, yeah.
32:41: I mean there are some examples that I’ll use, there’s some like kind of simple rules that are really helpful.
32:45: Asking a man why he’s feeling something usually takes him into his head.
32:50: Totally.
32:50: So a really helpful distinction is that so many of us, if we’re living in our mask when we’re living in our head, you know, it’s kind of like living in our sympathetic nervous system too, like we don’t need to be there all the time, but a lot of us are.
33:01: We’re in problem solver mode and kind of hyper adrenaline focused.
33:05: And so, if you ask an analytical man, which most of us are, we like problem solving.
33:10: You ask him why he’s gonna go to like, hmm, oh, I’m feeling, I’m actually feeling something in my chest, like, you know, sadness or shame or a pit in my stomach, but now that you’re asking me why I’m feeling it, I’m trying to rationalize, yeah, in my head like what happened that could have created that like.
33:27: Like I can’t and most guys can’t really come up with like the words as to why they’re feeling it, like, I don’t know, like, so why usually goes to the head, how or what kind of questions, those questions ask a man to break bring himself down into his body, which is where his emotions live.
33:44: Right.
33:45: And so if you can ask more open-ended questions that would really be helpful too, that are like, what does that feel like?
33:51: How does that feel?
33:52: Where do you feel that?
33:53: What’s that like for you?
33:54: You know, just to like peek into their world and have them expand on it versus giving them kind of like a binary choice, like a yes or no question.
34:03: Even like leading questions aren’t.
34:05: I hate where you’re like, do you, do you find yourself that you feel this way or like you’re like you’re assuming and I think that’s also hard because people are trying, they don’t know how to go from like leading questions to open questions.
34:21: Yeah, that’s something.
34:22: I had to learn just from coaching because I was like I was going through this process of like, maybe this is something that’s coming up, whatever, but like, I can’t assume that I know what their experience is.
34:30: It’s a.
34:31: It’s a projection.
34:32: And so it’s so much better to be like a a what a how, which is why I always ask open open questions, but leading questions also lead them to be deciding on that what that is.
34:42: And it’s so hard unless you’re connected to intuition, like, actually, no, that’s not where I’m at at all.
34:48: It’s actually XYZ.
34:50: But most people, to your point, don’t know what I’m feeling, what’s really going on.
34:54: And so the guidance is so much more helpful.
34:56: It is helpful, yeah, but if you ever do find yourself asking a leading question, my my offering is just like, well, don’t ask a question, just say what you think is going on, you know, say what’s on the tip of your tongue.
35:08: Like, I think you’re angry about this.
35:10: I think you’re ashamed that your dad used to beat you up about this stuff, you know, do you think you’re angry about this?
35:15: Yeah, it’s like, yeah, it’s like.
35:17: yeah.
35:17: Yeah, so open-ended questions, try to avoid why questions, try to avoid putting someone in a corner with like they have to choose this answer or or even an answer at all, like, we talk, I’ve talked about this with Austin’s like, like, especially early on in our relationship, he would shut down and I’d be like, where did you just go?
35:36: Like, are you OK?
35:37: What’s happening?
35:38: And he wouldn’t know, he’d go right to his head.
35:40: So in so over time I really learned to be like, OK, I’m seeing your shutdown.
35:45: And I’m gonna give you space, and I wouldn’t even ask anymore because a lot of times like he wouldn’t know why, and he didn’t have an answer, you know, so, and I think we as women are like a lot, a lot of us are like, but I, I want to know like what’s happening, how can I, I think we’re also problem solvers, so we’re like, for sure, we’re also like, how can I fix you?
36:01: How can I make you feel better, like, there’s a lot of that too, for sure.
36:05: So I feel like it helps so much to let Hi process it himself, and I was like, it’s not about me, so it’s OK.
36:10: I’m not, I think too, it’s easy, and I think this happens on both sides, like, what did I do wrong?
36:16: What did I do to cause this?
36:17: How can I?
36:18: And I think we both fall into that trap.
36:20: But yeah, chances are if you’re listening to this podcast, like you you’ve like navigated this word codependence, you know, like if you’re an empath, you deal with this wrestle of Codependence, how can I be interdependent and stay within myself, also be fully expressed, but like not take other people’s crap on.
36:37: And a big hallmark of that is like thinking that you’re responsible for someone else’s experience, you know, for their actions, for their emotions.
36:44: So that actually happens to me and Rochelle’s relationship a lot.
36:47: We actually both do this.
36:49: So we’re a great mirror to each other, but But we’re like two ships in the night sometimes, we’re like we’re, we’ll be fighting about something or just, I wouldn’t say fighting, but like we’re we’re disagreement and we’re both kind of shut down and we’ll kind of get like silent or like kind of go do our thing for a little bit and we’re not really we’re actually both thinking that the other person’s mad at us, that they think we’re the we’re the problem in this issue, and so we internalize it, we think we’re the problem and it’s often I have to remind her like this is.
37:19: about you.
37:20: I’m angry at the situation.
37:21: To to your example earlier, I’m not angry at you.
37:24: I’m just happy to be angry at the situation that that I’m in this.
37:27: I don’t like being in this.
37:28: It’s not that you did something wrong to make me feel this way.
37:32: I hate when people try to tell me that they made me feel something like, you can’t make me feel something.
37:37: I choose internally to rationalize any action or event, and I internalize that as an emotion.
37:44: Like that’s something I have total control over and So that’s, that’s tough.
37:49: To call that out, it sounds like there’s like a sense of responsibility that you’ve taken though, that I think a lot of people, not just men, everyone can step into as like, I think when you’re kind of living in this unawareness, you just see what they’re doing to you.
38:03: You don’t realize that there’s also a sense of owner or own responsibility to dive deeper and be like, hey, what’s, I’m in this.
38:10: How am I choosing to feel this way?
38:11: What’s really coming up for me?
38:12: And it’s beautiful that you’re, you guys are learning that and you are learning that, and I’m learning that and you’re Yeah, how to take your responsibility for your parts.
38:20: And I think the skip step is not having that conversation.
38:23: Like, even your example used of your client with with the baby in the diaper, and she’s probably getting triggered because she wants him to be present.
38:31: Like, it’s not about him doing the diaper wrong, it’s him not being in the presence, you know.
38:35: And he gets triggered by not doing it right.
38:37: Like, I can’t do anything right, and the shame cycle starts.
38:40: And if you don’t talk about that and say like, oh, it’s not about you, it’s my thing, that’s where I think so.
38:47: and shut down or they come in conflict.
38:50: Such a good call because that’s exactly the core of what was actually going on.
39:15: It wasn’t about the diapers.
39:15: It was actually that they both felt deeply disconnected.
39:15: It’s like the cap.
39:15: It’s about the flowers.
39:15: Is it’s not about the dishes, it’s about the trash.
39:16: You can do.
39:16: As much trash as you want, it’s not about that.
39:18: Yeah, so good.
39:19: Well, thank you for all of that.
39:22: It’s been so helpful and I’m so excited to get the feedback from this episode.
39:26: Now I want to make this a little bit more about you.
39:28: So we ask all of our guests a very special question, and it’s related to the podcast.
39:34: It’s, where are you craving or finding yourself to be more fully expressed in your life?
39:41: It can be life, relationships, business, anything that you feel cold.
39:44: I think creativity.
39:46: You always say this.
39:48: Yeah, you’re always like, I want more creativity.
39:50: I want more.
39:52: It’s a bit of a repetitive cycle.
39:54: I, I told myself when I took my first corporate job, you know, I felt like I was kind of failing in a way cause like I was just taking a job when I really wanted to do the entrepreneurial thing and work at a startup, something really cool and fun and really meaningful.
40:08: I took a job at Grubhub doing account management and I remember telling my girlfriend at the time, I was like, I don’t want to take this job, but if I take it, just make Sure that I keep playing guitar.
40:18: Make sure I play guitar like at least once a week, and I keep that creative endeavor, that creative side of me, because that’s so such a deep part of my soul, and I gotta say I I didn’t keep up playing guitar very much, you know, like I did a little bit, but like I’ve lost that part of myself and so yeah, how do you feel to creatively express yourself?
40:37: I know you have different ways, so yeah, now it’s it’s like creativity when I create like I created this really cool post the other day on Instagram, like that was really fun for me to create.
40:45: It was like a, I acted out what it would be like for a guy to get a promotion but not feel worthy of it basically, and perform really well, but I was like more happy that I created the video.
40:55: It was fun to do and act it out.
40:57: And so I think for me in in work and in life, it’s creative, creative expression and just having fun with what I’m doing, you know, the teaching style that I do just like make it fun and engaging and not be work anymore, you know.
41:12: That’s a great one.
41:13: So beautiful.
41:14: Yeah.
41:15: Yeah we’ll hold the vision for you.
41:17: Next time you come on and tell us all about that.
41:20: Yeah, we should have a painting or something.
41:22: Yeah, I mean, he, he loves that he’s really good at drawing.
41:26: I know that’s what he said that the other night, yeah, the other day, I think we were at, where were we, I think it was like maybe a few months ago we were at Hoggo’s and I drew mine and then Quentin threw his.
41:33: I was like, yeah, yours is way better than mine.
41:35: I like not in a bad way, but you’re just like so much more colorful.
41:38: You had more intention and it was just So beautiful and I was like, not me.
41:41: I have all the painting tools, we should use them.
41:43: They’ve been sitting for a while.
41:45: Yeah.
41:45: I’m so in, yeah, I’m coming over, sounds good.
41:48: Good.
41:49: Yeah.
41:50: Thank you so much for being on the podcast, and the last thing we just wanted to ask is, where can people find you?
41:56: Where’s the best place to like contact you and get in touch with you and work with you?
42:00: Instagram is a great place.
42:01: I’m on LinkedIn as well, but just find me at Instagram at Qwilliams with 2 underscores at the end.
42:07: I’m probably the first guy that to pop up, I think.
42:10: And then our website is Q-williams.com.
42:12: I have a ton of free resources out there.
42:14: If you’re an athlete, there’s a ton of stuff.
42:15: There’s if you’re just a man that’s navigating emotional intelligence, there’s a great resource on there called Adjust your anger at a process and work through your anger.
42:24: Quick little tutorial video on that and a quick little mini course.
42:28: And I’m actually, I’ve been thinking like I’ve been having more conversations just around around this men’s stuff and I’ve been inspired to bring back my men’s group.
42:35: So if, if my men’s group is up on my website at the time of this podcast, check it out.
42:41: Yeah.
42:42: You won’t be disappointed, that’s for sure.
42:44: We already know that.
42:45: Yeah, I know you’re such a great space holder.
42:48: I’m going to say that and a good, how do I say, reflector, like you reflect back what is really helpful to hear.
42:54: So I think, yeah, I experienced that in friendship.
42:56: Thank you.
42:57: Yeah, thank you.
42:58: Well, thank you so much for coming on.
42:59: We love you.
43:00: Thanks for having me you guys.
43:02: Thank you so much for tuning in.
43:03: We really appreciate you being here.
43:05: If you enjoyed this episode, we’d be grateful if you could leave us a review and share it with a friend.
43:11: Also, we would love to hear from you.
43:13: Reach out to us on Instagram and let us know where you feel inspired to express yourself as you embrace this next era.
43:20: We are here to support you and encourage you.
43:23: See you on the next one.
Here’s what we cover in this episode:
- Men as High Performers: Exploring the societal expectation for men to always be the top achievers and how this impacts relationships.
- Men’s Work: What Does That Really Mean? Breaking down the concept of “men’s work” and how it relates to emotional intelligence, self-awareness, and growth.
- Redefining the Integrated Man: What does it mean to be a man who embraces both strength and vulnerability?
- Is It Sexy to See Your Woman Bring Home a Ton of Money? Discussing the dynamics of financial success in relationships and how men can support and celebrate a high-earning partner.
- What Is Defensiveness Teaching You? Understanding the lessons behind defensiveness and what happens when a man becomes defensive.
- Expressing Anger Is Primal: Exploring the healthy and unhealthy ways men express anger and the deeper emotions beneath it.
- What Does Your Man Truly Need? Practical advice for seeing your partner more deeply and meeting his emotional needs.
- When Does a Man Really Become a Man? Reflecting on the milestones and moments that shape a man’s identity and maturity.
Links & Resources:
Free Quiz – Discover Your Blueprint for Success: AthleteArchetype.com
Playing to Win Course – Breakthrough Passivity & Embody True Confidence in 6-Weeks: https://www.q-williams.com/playingtowin
Connect with Quentin:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/qwilliams__/
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/q-williams3/
Website: https://www.q-williams.com/
About Quentin:
Quentin (Q) Williams is a mental performance coach & facilitator for men & athletes. His mission is helping high performers build confidence & embody healthy masculinity by training in the often misunderstood science of Emotional Intelligence. Q has trained over 1,000 business leaders and pro, olympic, & collegiate athletes, helping them clarify & activate their unique purpose and build confidence that transcends their title & uniform. Q has partnered with the likes of Yale Football, Pro Football Hall of Fame, & Concussion Legacy Foundation. As the Founder & Head Coach of World Class, Q’s work frames a unique intersection of Emotional Intelligence, Healthy Masculinity, and Athlete Identity. Q was a Gator Bowl Champion at Northwestern University, holds a Master’s Degree in Sports Administration, has spoken on countless podcasts, leads international men’s groups, and resides in sunny San Diego, California.
Final Thoughts: Masculinity is evolving, and we’re here for it. Tune in to hear how men can step into their power, embrace vulnerability, and show up as integrated partners.
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