In this powerful and honest conversation, Karenna and Samantha explore the evolving dynamics of modern relationships and the emotional undercurrents often left unspoken between men and women. They unpack the tension showing up in traditional partnerships, the emotional wounds many men are carrying, and how we can foster more safety, connection, and understanding in our intimate relationships.
0:02: Welcome to the Fully Expressed podcast.
0:04: We’re your host Karenna and Samantha.
0:06: This show is your permission slip to stop holding back.
0:10: Here we talk about what it really means to live unapologetically you in your relationships, your business, and your everyday life.
0:17: We believe the most magnetic version of you is rooted in self-expression, honesty, vulnerability, and showing up fully as you are.
0:24: When you own that, you naturally attract the people, the opportunities, and the life that is meant for you.
0:30: Today’s episode is a follow up to one of our most viral videos that has sparked a lot of conversation and it has to do with something that we really feel a lot of women are experiencing and going through, which is not wanting to be married anymore.
0:44: And it’s such an important discussion because one of the things that we both learned from our most viral video has been how men also feel about this topic.
0:53: And so Samantha and I thought that it would be a great.
0:55: opportunity for us to dive deeper into what could be potentially going on from a lot of the comments that we got on this reel.
1:03: Yeah, so many of the men in this conversation were passing judgment, making assumptions where the women on the other side were a lot more supportive and we really wanted to talk about the double standard of emotional expression amongst men and women and why maybe men don’t feel.
1:21: Comfortable or feel like they have a safe space to actually express their emotions.
1:25: And what we can do as women being our fullest expressed self in relationship to really invite them into that conversation because Sam and I really do believe in a world where we get to both the partner and ourselves be fully expressed.
1:38: So let’s dive in into this conversation.
1:40: We hope that you really take away understanding of how we can better show up for ourselves and for men.
1:48: Karenna and I are here today on a solo episode talking about.
1:53: A subject that we’re very passionate about and also one that has come up a lot lately on our social media, which is why can’t men and women fully hear one another when it comes to relationships and emotional safety.
2:09: Yeah, this conversation is going to be so juicy because recently one of our reels went viral and it gave us so much insight into how People are really feeling.
2:20: One, both how women are feeling, but even more eye-opening how men are feeling when women are speaking their truth in relationship, deciding to choose themselves in relationship or really leaning into that.
2:34: And so we’re going to be diving into all the weeds as to what this viral reel has gone.
2:38: If you haven’t seen it, you can go look at the comments.
2:40: It’s there.
2:40: You’ll find it on Instagram.
2:42: Yeah, it was really crazy.
2:45: So the clip.
2:45: was with our podcast guest Ian Brennan, and she was talking about being in a marriage that was no longer serving her anymore and wanting to leave that marriage and she was actually speaking about when she was 22 years old.
2:59: She was reflecting on the past, but of course, you know, we took a clip from it and it went viral and a lot of assumptions were made, and it was really interesting to see the women come out in full support and the men come out with a Lot of judgment, assumptions, anger, vitriol.
3:16: So we wanted to start by reading just a few of the comments, mainly from men because honestly the women were really supportive and then we were gonna kind of go into break it down, yeah, break it, break it down.
3:27: So one of the, I think the number one comment that we got the most of was women will sacrifice their family for happiness and men will sacrifice their happiness for family.
3:39: That was, let’s just peel that one back.
3:42: I was like let’s just start there.
3:44: I mean, I, it makes me really sad but that’s how men feel.
3:51: To some extent, like it’s not like we’re sacrificing the family when we are deciding to finally choose ourselves in a relationship.
3:59: Yeah, I also was really surprised because I’m sorry, I’ve never heard that.
4:03: I had never heard that before.
4:04: clearly it’s going around in the men’s world, but also it made me sad because You know, Karin and I are both in very like loving, joyful relationships and to witness that there’s this belief that men cannot be happy as well in the relationship, like they’re going to sacrifice their happiness.
4:24: For the family is so heartbreaking because one, we only get one life.
4:28: Why would you want to not try to create a dynamic that that creates happiness for both parties and also the children are witnessing your supposed unhappiness then as well, which is not doing them any favors.
4:41: I know, I feel that so deeply too, and I do believe there is a world where you can have a relationship with someone else where.
4:48: You’re neither of you’re sacrificing.
4:50: You’re actually choosing to actively be in the relationship because it serves both of you, because there’s love there.
4:57: I also think that, you know, a lot of this, this reel that went off was talking about divorce and wanting to leave a marriage.
5:04: I also think that that choice is there too.
5:07: So it’s really sad to see that there is this assumption that you have to choose.
5:13: Yourself over something else and that’s bad.
5:16: Yeah, and then I it actually reminded me in the beginning when this first went viral, you and I both were talking to this one man who was saying, oh, you know, relationships are transactional and it’s for, you know, money and finances like to stay together and all these things, and it did over time now made me realize there’s a huge generational divide as well in how we view marriage and our parents’ generation really is like you stay together no matter what forever regardless of how Happiness like that’s the least important thing, and younger generations are, you know, I think looking at it very differently, hesitant maybe even to get into marriage or recognizing that, you know, women feel a certain way and men feel a certain way in regards to how they view marriage.
5:58: Another big thing that was mentioned was the statistic the statistic around how many women initiate divorce versus men.
6:06: It’s a very high statistic and it’s mostly educated women.
6:09: And it’s interesting because the way that men pose that statistic in our comments was like in a very defensive manner.
6:14: But to me, you know, and I think for you too, I don’t want to speak for you, but it’s like an invitation into well if that’s happening, why?
6:21: Why is that happening?
6:22: Why is that statistic so high?
6:24: It’s an invitation to a conversation of what’s really going on.
6:28: Yeah, and it’s almost like it’s also an invitation for men to be also able to walk away from a marriage.
6:33: I think men on the other side of that one thing that to your comment was I think men.
6:38: Really, how do I say this?
6:41: Feel really good about commitment, and they feel like they’re committed to their families and to the marriage, and they’ll choose that over themselves.
6:50: And there’s this like attachment or this pride or this loyalty to that.
6:55: And so I say that with like I also think there’s an invitation here for men to also feel comfortable to leave a marriage if it’s no longer supporting you.
7:02: I think it’s more rare for men to speak up because they will also one put their feelings underneath the rugs.
7:09: They want to do the best thing.
7:11: It’s the worst thing to leave your marriage.
7:13: You are the man of the relationships.
7:15: You are committed to the relationship.
7:17: So there’s this like assumption that men have to stay in the marriage.
7:22: Yeah, that makes total sense.
7:24: Yeah.
7:25: What are your thoughts on like the male loneliness epidemic that’s been talked about so much lately?
7:30: I mean, I think there’s a female loneliness.
7:32: I mean there’s both.
7:33: I think actually both parties are feeling lonely just in a completely different way, but totally and that’s the part that makes me even more sad.
7:40: Like the other question, the other person that we were talking to in our comments that was so interesting.
7:44: I like kind of pushed back and I’m like I’m so curious like how could you make these assumptions about this woman.
7:50: , Alana specifically in the real when you have a son and you have kids, like when you like, you know, wouldn’t you want the best for your son and for your daughter.
8:00: And he pushed back and he was like, well, because my wife left me and my family after 23 years.
8:05: And to bring it back to what you were saying, that defensiveness, like I think there’s also this sense of like we have to have empathy and understanding that men are also getting hurt from us just leaving a relationship, like getting up and just leaving a relationship.
8:20: There is this wound that’s left of abandoned.
8:22: , that they’re navigating.
8:25: I think a lot of the pain that was shown throughout our Instagram and the comments was that pain being reflected back to us as to like, well, let her get up and go and like leave for the money or just leave the family.
8:36: Like there’s all this pain that men are also holding and I think where men are holding that, they’re holding that in the place of like projecting that and making women the victim, but they’re not getting compassionately curious or being able to hold the space for like, yeah, it hurts that.
8:52: I’m no longer in this, but the like my wife left me.
8:55: And instead of just saying that, they say like oh women are the ones like.
9:01: Breaking the marriages, it’s their faults.
9:03: They forgot about their kids and they’re forgetting about me.
9:06: Yeah, and that’s what you end up hearing and what you end up seeing versus I think there’s also an invitation for men to just be honest with like it also, it sucks that the marriage was broken up.
9:15: Why can’t we talk about those feelings?
9:17: Yeah, yeah, and I think that is a perfect prime entryway into the fact that another comment that was said is like, oh well, men know how to handle their emotions.
9:26: Women are the crazy ones.
9:27: Women are the ones that are all over the place that you don’t know how to handle.
9:31: Your emotions, and that makes me think about, you know, that one, I don’t think men actually handle their emotions at all.
9:39: A lot of the comments were emotional, but also like you had spoken to this previously in a different conversation, but men are not invited into expressing their emotions, and I know you talk about that a lot, but yeah, can you expand on that?
9:52: Yeah, well, I mean like this is.
9:54: I think this is the crutch of everything, right?
9:56: I think as human beings, I hate that we’re using genders because it’s so generalized.
10:00: I think both men and women don’t know how to express themselves.
10:03: I think women are in a time right now where they get to that point in the relationship where they have been suppressing themselves for so long and they finally get the confidence, the power.
10:13: blow up and like share their emotions and it feels like it’s chaotic and men are like, what the fuck she’s crazy.
10:19: And like that’s not what’s happening.
10:21: It’s just that she’s finally feeling comfortable to share.
10:23: I also think there’s an invitation for men to also share, and I think there’s this desire to have as the United States or the world or whatever, human beings don’t.
10:34: They think emotional chaos is bad.
10:38: You know, it’s a bad thing that you’re chaotic.
10:40: It’s a bad thing that you’re dramatic.
10:41: It’s a bad thing that you’re sharing your emotions and expressing yourself.
10:45: I think what does come a lot easier for women is to connect to that emotions because we have that divine sense of femininity within us.
10:54: We’re more connected to what’s going on to us intuitively.
10:57: I think men still have access to that, but it’s Been years of a lot of men looking weak if they share their emotions and then they think of like, you know, being able to control my emotions is good.
11:11: And I would push back on that and like that’s not good at all, right?
11:15: Yeah, and it’s like culturally has been this creation of well men don’t cry, you know, you don’t cry, hold it in or be strong or all these things and you know, I think as to your point, women are pushing back way more.
11:30: I mean, I think there’s so much emotional immaturity in general in the world and that’s why we are in the world like that’s why the world is where it is because we don’t know how to handle our emotions or to have clear communication or to talk about how we’re really feeling.
11:42: But I do think too that women are in this interesting place where they’re becoming more empowered and they’re learning, they’re wanting to learn how to express better, hence the whole reason of our podcast, and I think that men have not been invited into that conversation yet and and so it comes out as anger and rage and frustration and judgment and so what do you think would help men get invited in the conversation?
12:07: I mean, we both have very expressive partners, and I think creating a safe space for that.
12:14: It’s really interesting actually.
12:15: I was talking to a friend this morning and she’s going through a thing with her husband and she said, She, he, he, he has, you could call it ADD, you could call it just like, not fully wanting to do all the things on the list, right?
12:29: Like ignores or she’ll give him things to do and then he doesn’t do them and then he makes all these excuses.
12:35: And she said like ever so often she blows up like it gets to a place where she freaks out and she explodes on him and then he’s like, what the hell?
12:43: Like do you not love me?
12:44: Do you, are you not happy?
12:45: And she goes, you know, if you want to be happy, I want, she’s so extreme.
12:50: But she was like, if you want to be happy, I give you full permission to go and find that if that’s not with me, but know that I actually love you so much and know that this is how you are.
13:00: And I know that you’re not going to change this unless you want to change this.
13:04: And so I’m gonna like let it go and I’m gonna not say anything and then ever so often.
13:09: Going to explode because it gets to a point where I’m really frustrated, but I don’t love you any less.
13:15: I’m just expressing those emotions.
13:17: Now again, not saying that’s a healthy way to express it, but I loved that she was just like, it doesn’t make me love you any less.
13:23: And I think coming back to your question is just, I think we need to create safe spaces for men to release whether it’s amongst themselves, whether it’s with us.
13:31: I think that we don’t do any favors to them by.
13:35: Belittling them or or be making them feel weak or, you know, I mean I have a very sensitive husband and I’ve tried really hard not to, you know, say you’re a pussy or like, oh just toughen up or you’re so sensitive.
13:48: I try not to say those things because I’m so grateful that he expresses that part of himself to me.
13:54: Something that’s coming up as you’re saying that.
13:56: I think what we have to realize is that men have emotions too.
14:00: And I think like the invitation that you’re talking about is like a beautiful space for us to say that.
14:05: I think one thing that men hear all the time, because women are so good at, so good.
14:11: I’m going to use the word so good, but I guess the words are also like women have this way of seeing men in ways that they do not see themselves and by us constantly calling them out, they they tend to create the story within themselves of like, well, I’m never good enough for you, or I’m not worthy of you, or there’s I always do something wrong because we’re always talking about it.
14:33: And what I’ve realized, I think the invitation here too is to create that emotional safety comes in.
14:39: , asking more questions versus making assumptions.
14:46: I know like even in my relationship with Nick, like sometimes I’d be like, I see these things, but like me being even asking the question like, are you open for feedback?
14:55: And now you’re asking them for their permission to share what you’re seeing.
14:59: , because I also think there’s also a beautiful mirror for women because of my own process and my own relationship, anytime that Nick would trigger me or to your friend’s perspective of like, I’m stuffing it under the rug and then all of a sudden I want to blow up, I think the bigger invitation is like why, what’s causing her to blow up and usually it’s something within ourselves.
15:21: So one moment, I remember when I was working really really hard and Nick had he’s entrepreneur, so he had so much time in the day.
15:28: And I would get upset with him and be like, you’re not doing anything around the house.
15:31: And what did that come down to?
15:33: I’d be like, you’re not doing anything else you’re not helping me.
15:35: And what I realized the trigger in me was me recognizing that like, oh, I actually have FOMO that you have more time to do whatever you want, and I’m the one that’s tied to a computer.
15:45: And so I was projecting that on to him, but I took that as like a mirror back to me of like he’s not doing anything around the house.
15:52: When he was doing things around the house, he just wasn’t doing them.
15:56: In the structured way that I would host that.
15:58: So like that’s the kind of conversation I think that women have to also see within themselves.
16:03: It’s like how do we create the safety, but also see that us reacting is actually an invitation for us to see within us.
16:11: Yeah.
16:12: I love that so much.
16:14: That’s awesome.
16:15: Yeah, I think we’re all Air for one another.
16:17: So if you’re, and that’s exactly, you know, her husband works from home and he’s home all day and she’s out doing stuff.
16:23: Yeah, so that’s so funny because I didn’t even know.
16:27: Yeah, but I think.
16:28: That is it, and I think she holds a lot of responsibility just as a mother and that’s, that’s a conversation.
16:33: I mean, that’s a whole another topic, but I think a lot when kids come into play, there’s a responsibility that is literally rewired inside of you as a mother that I think.
16:44: Sometimes men don’t give enough credit to understanding that.
16:49: It’s like, you know, if you look to nature, the mothers of animals are so fierce.
16:54: They’re so protective, like everything is about the safety of the animal and the survival of the child of the pet of the pet, the child, the the puppy, the dog, whatever the animal, the cub, and you know, men aren’t wired that same way.
17:08: They’re wired a different way.
17:09: And I think what I am witnessing too, and maybe you can speak a little to this as well is like there’s a responsibility that women are holding.
17:17: And there’s a frustration because, you know, we’re living in a time where women aren’t just stay at home moms and maybe don’t want to be just stay at home moms, but now they’re taking on all half the responsibilities of the household and the and the life and the money and the work and all the things plus caring for the kids.
17:34: And one of the complaints I see a lot in women is like men are having to be asked to do things and that’s probably also a frustration of my friend is like having to ask.
17:42: It’s like, well, I don’t want you to have to ask.
17:45: I want you to just see and do.
17:47: And that’s a conversation Austin and I have sometimes it’s like, I don’t want you to ask me.
17:52: I just want you to see I need it.
17:54: And I think feeling safe to have those conversations are also really important because that’s where I think we get to the place where we blow up too is when we don’t speak that and.
18:06: I think when you can say like, hey, I need you to just see where I need help and support and maybe you give examples the first few times and then you you try to see if they can see those holes and fill them but that’s something else I see a lot of.
18:21: I think there’s so much sun pack there.
18:23: So I think a lot of women talked to this about the like the mental load, the things that they like, especially I don’t have kids or anything, but I’ve been seeing a lot of women in households saying like there’s this mental load of like I have to take care of the kids.
18:33: I have to do the laundry.
18:34: And they’re like begging their husband to take on some of that weight and they’re just saying like I just want you to do things around the house.
18:41: One, I think in that like men are not doing the best job of getting involved in the household stuff because women have taken over.
18:48: So there’s two things that are playing out.
18:50: One, Men are not doing the household things because you’re constantly doing them.
18:55: I think that women also have to learn to learn to like let their men take ownership of that.
19:02: Like a good example of that like if you’re going to say, hey, you’re going to make the kids lunches today.
19:07: You kind of have to surrender to how they make the kids lunches if you really want them to start learning how to do so.
19:12: The other thing that came up when you were saying that that I think about as well in like my own relationship is like I think so often we expect people to know exactly what we want.
19:22: But we can’t.
19:23: And I think, you know, from my own personal experience in general, whenever I’ve wanted Nick to like there’s been like emotional moments where I’m like, Nick, I really like I’m going through it internally and you don’t see me.
19:36: Like you don’t see that I’m going through it.
19:38: Like why haven’t you asked me like how I’m doing or like why haven’t you dove in deeper into my process and I think what comes up for me is that for most of my life, I never had anyone really ask me questions or deeper questions so that I’m projecting onto him and being like, why aren’t you asking me deeper questions?
19:54: And he’s like, well, I don’t know what you’re looking for, right?
19:57: And like that was like early on in our relationship, but now.
20:01: What I have started to step into in moments where I, I have to ask and let him know that I need him and be like, babe, I’m really going through it.
20:07: Can we like spend some time today to talk about it versus expecting him to ask me things.
20:13: But I think that is going to teach him so much more further because like later on now later on in my relationship, he’s asking like, hey, I see.
20:21: That you’re really going through it.
20:22: Do you want to sit down and talk about it?
20:24: And because he learned that, right?
20:26: So I think we also have the invitation here is having more conversations versus expectations.
20:33: And I think a lot of our expectations are coming from a place of us trying to keep us safe and we don’t realize that we’re trying to keep ourselves safe.
20:40: Yeah, and just to add to that, I think It has to sometimes be more than one conversation.
20:45: Like something I said to my friend this morning was, well, maybe you need to have a conversation about this.
20:50: She’s like, oh, I’ve had so many.
20:51: I’m like, well, maybe it’s the way you’re saying it.
20:53: Maybe you need to say it a different way, maybe you need to use examples like I, there’s certain times I think on both sides, men and women, we have to really like have a different, we have to change the way we’re conversing because a lot of times too, I think we’re, we get to that place where we explode or we’re frustrated and then that’s where the conversation’s coming from instead of seeking to understand.
21:12: And then trying to explain how they’re feeling.
21:15: Let’s talk about seeking to understand because I think that’s like the crutch of everything and and miscommunication failures is like we think we’re talking by talking at each other.
21:25: There’s so much more talking that happens and communication that happens and asking questions and getting curious.
21:32: Like how often have you been in conversation with someone?
21:34: I’ve noticed this so many times.
21:35: I’ll be sitting at the table and someone’s talking.
21:37: I’m like, you guys are both having your individual conversations.
21:41: Neither of you are actually hearing hearing one another.
21:44: You’re just speaking.
21:46: Like it’s like when you’re in argument with your partner and you want to be so badly right that you’re like no matter what he says.
21:52: I’m going to be right.
21:54: And there’s that’s not going to help the communication.
21:57: What’s really going to help the communication is getting curious as to like, OK, so tell me more about why you feel like you’re right.
22:03: Tell me more about your process.
22:05: And I think that key thing is also going to be the invitation to bring it back for men to be able to share what’s going on, not necessarily like telling them at them or doing it at them.
22:17: It’s just like, hey.
22:19: Tell me, like what’s coming up for you in this moment?
22:21: How do you view this?
22:22: Like what is your perspective about this?
22:24: Like there’s so much more understanding in that versus like I think I’m right and then the other men’s over here either shutting down or also or also proving themselves.
22:35: Yeah, and I think exactly as you said, it goes back to what you said about or what we’ve been talking about creating emotional safety for men, and I think that is the way to do it is by inviting them into the conversation instead of telling them what they’re doing wrong, and I think that’s something.
22:49: That so many men experience like from from all of us and not just men, women too, from a young age of our parents like how many of our parents actually were like, oh my gosh, sweetie, how are you feeling?
23:01: Why, why, what is making you upset?
23:02: What’s underneath of this?
23:04: How, you know, how can we work on this?
23:06: Like no one talks that way to their kids.
23:09: I mean, maybe now our generation is trying to gentle parent or like seek to understand, but I think that we have to deprogram ourselves from that.
23:18: So it just came into my mind when we had Alejandra on the podcast, she kind of pushed back on the idea to understand when it comes to communication and partnership.
23:27: And I think this is also really beautiful because I think sometimes we don’t necessarily have to understand where our partners coming from.
23:34: We just got to be able to see like I get it.
23:36: Like I see where you’re coming from.
23:38: I might not relate to your experience, but I see where you’re coming from.
23:42: Like there’s so many moments in my own partnership where I’m constantly like, oh.
23:47: I don’t experience that at all, but you’re having that experience and that’s what’s valid.
23:52: Because I think sometimes we only understand in relationship to things that we resonate with and we’re hoping that if we resonate with them, then this is the right thing.
24:01: But at the end of the day, it really doesn’t matter.
24:03: It’s just getting to a place of being able to be like, I get that you’re experiencing that.
24:08: That is your experience, that is absolutely valid.
24:11: Now I see why you’re reacting this way or why you’re responding this way or why you’re desiring to do this thing.
24:16: And the more that we can do that in a relationship, the more that we’re gonna feel like the relationship is closer and you get connected and there’s more invitation for emotional safety to what you’re talking about.
24:28: Yeah, and we talked about this before, but I think the crux of everyone is wanting to be seen, wanting to be seen, wanting to be understood, wanting to be validated and to your point, like you don’t have to be, there’s no right really because you’re just coming from each other’s perspectives and you’re missing one another.
24:42: So how do you find that reflection?
24:46: And I think the more as a fully expressed woman, because I know a lot of women listen to this.
24:50: You know, as a fully expressed woman, the reason why you’re fully expressing yourself is to be felt, to be seen, to be heard and understood.
24:58: And so the more that we can start to unpack that for ourselves, the greater capacity we’re going to be able to do that for the men in our lives.
25:05: And I think as women, we have so many gifts and intuitiveness and we immediately go search for the personal development books.
25:16: We immediately see on a podcast.
25:17: We immediately try to be a better human.
25:21: I think it’s not that men don’t want to be better.
25:24: I just don’t think they have the easier connection to that.
25:29: As we do.
25:30: And so I think like to further this down is like the more that we because especially bringing back to the episode, like a lot of women are just divorcing and leaving the house.
25:40: Like I just, I don’t know the dynamics of everyone’s relationships and there’s going to be situations where like abuse and things like that, extreme abuse or it’s welcome for you to leave the house and it’s not safe for you to be there.
25:51: But if the relationship is safe enough for you to have a conversation, fully expressing yourself as to why you’re leaving, not just leaving.
25:58: It is also very important to have that conversation and share because I think we also avoid.
26:04: Having those hard conversations because we want to protect ourselves.
26:09: It is scary to admit that I am choosing to leave a relationship, and here is why.
26:15: And we don’t know how people are going to respond on the other side.
26:18: But as a fully expressed woman, it’s really important for us to step into being honest about leaving the relationship and why.
26:26: And it’s OK because it’s for your own higher good and the relationship no longer meets you and that.
26:30: Yeah.
26:31: How do you feel like you discern what’s a good question.
26:35: The point, you know, like when you’re at that place.
26:38: Oh my gosh, I feel like this is for every single person.
26:40: I don’t feel like I can answer like what’s the good thing for you, but I think my own personal journey with like knowing if I’m going to stay in this relationship or not, like is the relationship still teaching me and is there still love there?
26:51: I think that like if I’m constantly being able to like be able to fall in love with my partner or constantly find a way to grow together and we’re both expanding and it’s serving both of us, then I’ll stay.
27:00: , but I’m also in a relationship where there isn’t a lot of pain or like abuse or like emotional abuse, so I can’t necessarily talk to the extreme versions of that.
27:10: I also believe that whatever choice you make is a part of your story.
27:14: Like, your soul will end up learning, I agree, will end up learning the thing, yeah, no matter what whether you learn it in that relationship or the next relationship.
27:22: So I think just trusting whatever you need for yourself in that moment.
27:26: I think the conversation that we’re trying to have here is like how can we be more feel more safe to express ourselves versus just ghosting.
27:34: Filing for divorce, being extreme in certain situations.
27:39: What are your thoughts about that?
27:40: Yeah, I agree.
27:41: I think it’s person to person.
27:42: I was just thinking.
27:46: In relationship dynam well two things I guess I’d speak to.
27:49: One is that, you know, porn is also like a huge issue.
27:54: With men, and I almost think sometimes like men will escape to, it could be work, it could be porn, it could be alcohol, it could be drugs, and I think that they can numb themselves long enough or distract themselves long enough to like be OK just continuing along the path of what they’re doing.
28:10: Whereas like you said to your point, women are really seeking self-help.
28:14: Women are seeking growth, they’re seeking and there’s.
28:16: Definitely men doing that too, but I would say it’s definitely majority of women right now, because there’s a deeper invitation for women and an ease.
28:24: and so I think that what men sometimes don’t get is like when women start to awaken to the deeper sense of self and what they truly desire, it’s almost like they’re finally given permission to be the person they wanted to be.
28:39: All along and maybe that person wasn’t in existence in the beginning of the marriage because they were still suppressing themselves.
28:46: And men have a lot of distractions to like be OK with processing and like ignoring and avoiding.
28:54: And I think because women are so intact with their intuition, like I think the second men turn on their intuition, they can’t ignore it either.
29:01: I just think men are really good at ignoring the intuition, and I think there’s a huge invitation right now for men to come into that intuition, to come into that kind of more feminine energy, but we again go back going back to the masculine feminine roles.
29:15: I really think that and I’d love to know your opinion with Nick, but like Austin and I are always ebbing and flowing in our divine masculine and feminine.
29:23: Sometimes I’m in my masculine, sometimes he’s in his masculine.
29:26: Like it really does shift back and forth.
29:28: And the more that I’ve allowed that to be OK, the better and deeper our relationship has gotten versus me wanting him to be like this big buff, whatever, which isn’t really realistic.
29:38: It’s programming that I have had from a childhood of what I think a man is.
29:43: And the more that I’ve let go of those cultural and gender norms, the more that our relationship has deepened and the more he’s had permission to heal himself and like go towards his intuition and so I don’t know what do you, what are your thoughts and I mean, that’s a great topic.
29:56: I mean, at the end of the day, both men and women both have feminine and masculine dynamics.
30:00: It’s about balancing both and being able to know both.
30:03: I think men have this pressure to be in their masculine and what you were talking about.
30:08: I also think that women have a lot of pressure to being their masculine today anyways and so like there’s a lot of wounded masculine energy in women because The workforce, the United States, our culture, we’ve stepped into these things, but we need the masculine as women.
30:24: So like I think about it as like, yeah, I connect from a business standpoint.
30:28: Like I connect to my intuition.
30:29: I know like there’s so much.
30:33: Beautifulness and just being able to listen to my intuition, be with my emotions, allow myself to flow.
30:38: But what’s going to take action on that?
30:40: That’s the masculine.
30:41: That’s the container.
30:43: and for men too, I think there’s an invitation for if you feel like you’re very masculine and you’re very committed and there’s a lot you have, you feel a lot of resistance to dropping your commitment and you’re like attached to commitment, bringing it to marriage like.
30:59: I think that there’s an invitation for you to not be so rigid, to to learn and to be with like, OK, well, no matter what my rigidness is saying, like what is true for me in this moment and how can I make decisions from that place.
31:12: And I think women tap into that easier, but I think men have the same invitation as well and they just completely uncapped.
31:20: But they need the masculine to take action on whatever is present for them in this moment.
31:25: At the end of the day, so true.
31:27: Yeah, yeah.
31:28: one thing I wanna make sure that we tap on for this is like how do you think or what do you think?
31:35: We can do continue to be fully expressed in relationship, but also invite our men to be fully expressed and why.
31:44: I personally think speaking back to what we said, just like having deeper conversations, like having uncomfortable conversations.
31:55: And I also would say understanding that relation, you know, I’ve been.
31:59: With my partner for 10 years, like you have periods of time where you feel like roommates.
32:04: You have periods of time where you are deeply in love.
32:07: You have moments and invitations to go deeper.
32:12: You have periods of growth where you’re gonna feel like you’re growing on your own and not with them, and I think.
32:17: Being open to understanding that that is a healthy, in my opinion, a healthy dynamic of being able to ebb and flow with that and it doesn’t, there’s plenty of moments maybe when we felt like roommates that I could have said, oh this isn’t my person but I think being willing to look at the programming around marriage and around relationships and asking like.
32:39: If I were to look back at the last 10 years, am I a better person now with my partner than I was 10 years ago and through, I mean, yes, the answer is yes, and do I see a future where we can keep evolving and I think to your point, like checking back in and having conversations around that, having shared vision, having the ability to see that, you know, a partnership is two people working together and yeah, having being open.
33:05: In having deeper conversations around and asking questions around how you can invite someone into or your partner into that space.
33:14: I love that so much because I think you were talking so much about seasons and I think it’s OK to be realized that our relationship is going to go through seasons.
33:22: the other mindset that I love to step into is like there is a world where we are better as a fully expressed man and a fully expressed woman in a relationship.
33:32: And I do think that we are actually meant to invite ourselves more into that through the hard conversations, through being triggered, through being activated.
33:40: I think through that hard, if you will, is where you find your fullest express self, is where you invite him into his fullest express self.
33:51: And I think sometimes we so badly want it to be so easy, but when you realize that Whatever comes up for you and your marriage or whatever the corner is or the relationship is or the edges, it’s a beautiful invitation for your next version of yourself.
34:09: We’re not, I think sometimes in a relationship we’re always constantly living at this like, well, this is your fault.
34:14: It’s like at each other versus seeing it as like it’s an invitation for me.
34:18: Or it’s an invitation for them.
34:20: And how do you make that also an invitation for the relationship?
34:23: Because I think there’s 3 relationships in a relationship.
34:26: There’s like the one that you have with yourself, the one that he has with himself, as well as the one that you have together together.
34:32: And so we have to realize that we are constantly mirroring each other as invitations for us to blossom.
34:39: You know God in this world and not say like You’re gonna be planted and you don’t need to be watered or go through seasons or go through the winter just so that you’re just gonna be a sunshine all the time.
34:51: Yeah, we actually need the darkness in our relationships to also find the sunshine and be the light.
34:56: And I definitely want to share this quote.
34:59: I shared it with you off camera, but we listened to a talk, Austin and I with Robert Grant, and he said we judge what we attract, sorry, we attract what we judge until we no longer judge what we attracted.
35:13: We attract what we judge until we no longer judge what we attracted, and I feel like that is so true in a dynamic of a relationship and after being with someone for 10 a decade, I can tell you that when you look at yourself, when you’re feeling triggered, when you’re feeling frustrated, or even when you scroll past a comment or a real that triggers you and you feel the need to comment, there’s something there for you to see in yourself.
35:35: And I think having that mindset.
35:37: Has helped us so much because it has stopped me from exploding on Austin on certain things because I realized like, oh, there’s an invitation for me to look at myself in this.
35:45: And if I’m frustrated by this behavior, like what is it reflecting to me?
35:49: And that has become so visible in my life in every area, not just relationships and I think that the more we do that, the less triggered we get because we realize it’s an invitation to heal within ourselves.
36:01: The The vision that I have based on what you said for the world is like how beautiful would it be if every single time you got triggered or activated in a relationship, you’re like, Hey, this is what’s coming up for me, or this is the story that I’m creating.
36:15: So you’re taking responsibility for that.
36:17: I think that’s also the missing piece and a lot of communication for people is like we’re saying you did this or Because you did this, this is how I’m feeling versus using the language of like, hey, like when you said that this is what came up for me.
36:31: Yeah, imagine if all the men said that in our comment instead of like calling her a see you next Tuesday or or like, oh she took half the money or all these assumptions, but it’s like you’re obviously coming from pain totally and be like, OK, I heard like this is a very conscious world, but if someone saw our real and like if you saw the real, she says, I need to leave the relationship.
36:51: I want to leave the relationship.
36:53: You know, if men in the comment that were wounded and be like, when I hear that, I feel that you want to that I’m not worthy of your love.
37:02: Or when I hear that, I feel like you’re not left your commitment or I’m going to be left alone.
37:07: Yeah.
37:07: Or when I hear that, I hear that you’re not committed and I’m more committed than you are.
37:13: Or when I hear that I Feel like the little boy in me that got left when my mom left me.
37:22: Or like when I hear that, I don’t know, there’s just so many examples, so many examples and I think the more that we have those kinds of conversations and we invite that into our relationships.
37:32: The greater we’re going to feel more connected and also the bigger invitation for us to choose ourselves.
37:37: Yeah.
37:37: , what made me sad is that, you know, we responded in that way to a lot of these men and either one, most of them did not respond back or two, they got even more defensive and it’s like no one’s attacking you.
37:50: We’re asking to have a deeper conversation.
37:53: And I think at the end of the day, even though there is this kind of campaign I see of women just like very frustrated and and hateful towards men.
38:01: At the end of the day, I think we do want men.
38:03: We just want men in a different capacity.
38:05: We’re craving more.
38:06: We’re craving more of men and we just don’t know how to invite them into the conversation fully, but I think that, you know, they’re, we want you men.
38:15: We just don’t, we want you in a healthy capacity just like we want to be in a healthy capacity.
38:20: It takes like to your point like this like movement that’s happening where women are frustrated and they’re angry and they’re like fuck this, I’m out, you know, and like.
38:29: I’m better and men are destroying everything, blah blah blah energy.
38:34: I mean, we’re closing off the door.
38:36: We’re locking the door and saying there is, there is no opportunity for you to walk in when at the end of the day that’s all that we want.
38:42: Yeah.
38:43: Like at the end of the day what we really want is to feel closer to one another.
38:46: One thing that we do want is to feel understood and heard.
38:49: But when we step into this like anger and frustration and also what’s hard to say it’s like it’s not that you So like then the bigger question I think comes up is like, OK, how do I express my anger and my frustration but also create a door for invitation.
39:01: Express both.
39:02: Like there there is a place for duality.
39:05: I think you can hold both things like as human beings like we are multi-dimensional humans.
39:08: We have multiple parts going on with us ourselves.
39:11: A lot of the times we feel like we have to identify with the part of us that is the loudest and the truth is, no, you can identify with both.
39:19: You can also not identify with either and just be like they’re here and be super unattached from.
39:24: Your own experience and just say I realize that this is coming up for me.
39:28: I realized that I have a lot of frustration and anger.
39:31: What would it look like for me to go process this anger and frustration in a healthy container and not project that onto you as like you are the person that’s causing my anger.
39:42: It makes me think of the example of life and death like so often you, you Someone dies and then a baby is born or you see that situation a lot and I think that it’s the example that you can hold both, you can be sad that you’ve lost someone you love and you can be so immensely joyful welcoming this new baby into the world, you know, and I think that’s the same as like we can mourn the frustration and the anger and we can express that and we can also find the joy and find the gratitude for the lesson in all of it or for the experience.
40:12: The other thing I think would be so beautiful for everyone to understand is like when we are experiencing extreme emotions like energy or frustration or anger at the underneath those emotions is usually sadness and also the deepest, most vulnerable parts of you.
40:26: So what we have to see what’s happening is like we’re feeling something.
40:30: There’s a part of us that feels very vulnerable and it’s very vulnerable to say the thing that we’re really feeling and so it shows up as the anger and the frustration and I don’t know, the controlling, the managing, the controlling of the environment or of a home or how your partner does something or something like that because we’re craving safety and it feels more safe to control the parts of ourselves to keep us safe from us expressing our vulnerability.
40:56: So the invitation I think for people is like if you are feeling this extense amount of anger and frustration or whatever in relationship or towards men.
41:04: get curious as to like what that meat is there because I promise you there’s something even deeper that you really do want.
41:12: You’re just not really giving yourself the opportunity to express that in a way that someone else can hear you and that.
41:18: Yeah.
41:19: And yeah, and actually the last thing I’d say in regards this brought up another Common I’m thinking of that someone said, which is actually a few people.
41:26: All I hear is III or she’s choosing herself and you know that there’s this belief that women are selfish for choosing themselves, but at the end of the day, you only have yourself.
41:38: So it’s so interesting to me to hear so many men commenting on that because Yes, you’re in partnership and it’s about both of you.
41:45: But if you’re not being the best version of yourself, period, whether you’re the man, the woman, doesn’t matter.
41:50: You’re not gonna be able to show up as the best version of yourself in the relationship.
41:54: So it does come down to I.
41:55: It doesn’t mean you have, you know, there’s a difference between selfless, selfish, and like doing what’s in the best interest of your own soul.
42:02: But I do think that It’s There needs to be a reframe around what’s considered selfish because men should be choosing themselves to a certain extent as well.
42:13: And they should be looking at what their soul is being called to do as well instead of thinking it’s all sacrifice.
42:20: Who are we with that told us the The between the selfish and the selfless.
42:25: There’s like an in between.
42:26: There’s a word.
42:28: We were with someone that told us this, but whatever that word is is the balance of that.
42:32: It’s like where you’re not necessarily being selfish, but you’re also not being selfless and you’re also full, full.
42:39: It was self full, that full?
42:41: So being like what does it look like to show up as self full where you are choosing yourself but you’re also being considered as someone else, where you are essentially doing the best thing that’s for you but also not completely.
42:52: Disagreeing, it was Cheryl.
42:55: Oh yeah, OK, divorced mom Cheryl.
42:59: she said self full because I think that also is the place here and I think we struggle so much as human beings to find duality and know that there is space for both.
43:09: And yes, and there are going to be moments where you would have to choose yourself harder.
43:13: And there’s going to be other moments where you can also be choose yourself and see the other person and be like, this is not something towards you or I see where you’re coming from.
43:23: It’s the conversation for both to what you were just talking about.
43:25: Yeah, it’s the journey of I into the journey of we.
43:28: And if you can show up as the best version of yourself, I mean, there’s a reason.
43:32: Gande said, like, be the change you want to see in the world because it starts with you.
43:35: And I think that is in the macrocosm and the microcosm and the more that you show up as the best version of yourself, the better you’re going to be in your relationship and your partnerships as a parent, as a person in society.
43:46: The other thing I want to say that just came up to my head back to like the comments that you said, like where people are like women or the men were like men, women choose themselves and men choose a relationship.
43:56: I would just say that is a beautiful mirror for men to realize that you’re not choosing yourself enough.
44:00: Yeah.
44:01: Or where in your life are you feeling like you’re not choosing you?
44:05: Yeah.
44:07: So true.
44:08: And for women too, if you’re hearing this and you feel like so often that there’s other people in your life that are choosing themselves and it triggers you.
44:14: OK, great.
44:15: Where within myself am I not choosing me?
44:18: I also think women choose the children more than the men overall.
44:22: And so that’s another idea.
44:23: Yeah, yeah, we don’t need to get into that, but I do think that I thought it was interesting so many men said that and there are obviously women that do abandon the family and things like that, but I think, I mean just in our community of friends and mothers like the kids are the number one priority, which also I could see how men perceive that as them choosing themselves if they leave the relationship, you know, so.
44:45: There’s a lot here.
44:47: There’s so many here.
44:48: I mean, I don’t have a child, but I also have a dog and like there’s a lot of moments where I will choose him over me.
44:54: but I also make conscious choices for myself.
44:56: So I think there’s even opportunity there for mothers and I don’t know what the balance is, but what does it look like for you to choose yourself as as a service to choosing your children, because in general, I think, yes, we’re constantly choosing our purse, our children.
45:11: But they’re not going to feel fulfilled if you’re not pouring into yourself, right?
45:15: It’s just it’s just going to show them an example of that.
45:18: And again, the biggest lesson I think that it comes down to is like as long as we’re taking care of ourselves, the rest of our world is taken care of.
45:25: If we are at zero capacity, the rest of the world is going to feel that.
45:29: So like I think a lot of mothers, and I’m not a mother yet, and I know we have an intuitive instinct, but we have to remember that if we’re at zero, our children are going to feel at 0.
45:38: When we’re at 0, that’s when we snap out.
45:40: kids.
45:41: When we’re at 0, that’s when we lose it, you know.
45:43: So I think we have to recognize like what does it look like to choose ourselves in service of choosing our kids.
45:48: And I think everyone is choosing that internal discernment of what that looks like for themselves.
45:53: I love that.
45:53: I agree 100%.
45:54: Yeah.
45:55: So, anything else that we want to add on this topic?
45:58: I think the summary of this is like there’s a lot of pain on both.
46:02: Sides in relationship, miscommunication.
46:05: A lot of miscommunication, a lot of pain.
46:08: I think we’re also up against a lot of men for generations not feeling comfortable to share.
46:13: And I think as we step into more of our fullest expressed self, I would just invite you to connect back to what does it look like, what does it feel like for you not to be seen and heard.
46:23: Men are feeling that too.
46:25: And we forget that.
46:26: And I think for men, like when you’re feeling abandoned and when you’re feeling like no one sees you or hears you, women are also feeling that as well in different ways.
46:35: And so if we can come back to that, there will be so much more I get it moments and I understand moments versus even more pain because if we, that’s where the pain starts to compound on top of each other and then You’re completely just living from a perspective of pain.
46:57: Yeah, pain and fear.
46:58: I think drive the car a lot.
47:00: Yeah, anything else you want to share?
47:02: I feel like you summed it up perfectly.
47:04: I agree.
47:05: OK.
47:06: Well, thank you so much for listening today.
47:09: This episode was so good.
47:11: Yeah, yeah, we really felt called to address this topic because of the feedback we received and still are receiving, and yeah, we just want to inviteri and I are so passionate about being fully expressed and we want to invite our grand vision is inviting men into their fullest expression too, not just women.
47:31: Yeah, that’s really important to us too because, you know, at the end of the day, what would it look like if the world felt so safe for women, children.
47:40: Any any role, any gender, everyone felt safe to hold their fullest expression, but also people also have the capacity and the skill set to receive someone else’s fullest expression like.
47:53: Yeah, fucking magic happen.
47:55: Yeah, and it’s not about you.
47:57: It’s about you.
48:00: It feels like it’s about you, but it’s not about you.
48:02: I know.
48:04: So yeah, we love you guys.
48:05: Thanks for tuning in.
48:06: See you on the next one.
48:07: Bye.
48:09: Thank you so much for tuning in.
48:10: We really appreciate you being here.
48:12: If you enjoyed this episode, we’d be grateful if you could leave us a review and share it with a friend.
48:17: Also, we would love to hear from you.
48:20: Reach out to us on Instagram and let us know where you feel inspired to express yourself as you embrace this next era.
48:27: We are here to support you and encourage you.
48:30: Before we go, we want to remind you that you are powerful and deserving a fully Expressing who you are.
48:35: Embracing your journey toward authenticity is a vital part of that process, and we’re grateful to be alongside you.
48:42: If you’re looking to dive deeper and connect with others who celebrate their true selves, we invite you to join our community.
48:48: It’s a virtual space for connection and accountability where you can share your experiences and grow together.
48:54: You can find the link in our show notes.
48:56: We can’t wait to welcome you.
48:58: See you on the next one.
0:04: We’re your host Karenna and Samantha.
0:06: This show is your permission slip to stop holding back.
0:10: Here we talk about what it really means to live unapologetically you in your relationships, your business, and your everyday life.
0:17: We believe the most magnetic version of you is rooted in self-expression, honesty, vulnerability, and showing up fully as you are.
0:24: When you own that, you naturally attract the people, the opportunities, and the life that is meant for you.
0:30: Today’s episode is a follow up to one of our most viral videos that has sparked a lot of conversation and it has to do with something that we really feel a lot of women are experiencing and going through, which is not wanting to be married anymore.
0:44: And it’s such an important discussion because one of the things that we both learned from our most viral video has been how men also feel about this topic.
0:53: And so Samantha and I thought that it would be a great.
0:55: opportunity for us to dive deeper into what could be potentially going on from a lot of the comments that we got on this reel.
1:03: Yeah, so many of the men in this conversation were passing judgment, making assumptions where the women on the other side were a lot more supportive and we really wanted to talk about the double standard of emotional expression amongst men and women and why maybe men don’t feel.
1:21: Comfortable or feel like they have a safe space to actually express their emotions.
1:25: And what we can do as women being our fullest expressed self in relationship to really invite them into that conversation because Sam and I really do believe in a world where we get to both the partner and ourselves be fully expressed.
1:38: So let’s dive in into this conversation.
1:40: We hope that you really take away understanding of how we can better show up for ourselves and for men.
1:48: Karenna and I are here today on a solo episode talking about.
1:53: A subject that we’re very passionate about and also one that has come up a lot lately on our social media, which is why can’t men and women fully hear one another when it comes to relationships and emotional safety.
2:09: Yeah, this conversation is going to be so juicy because recently one of our reels went viral and it gave us so much insight into how People are really feeling.
2:20: One, both how women are feeling, but even more eye-opening how men are feeling when women are speaking their truth in relationship, deciding to choose themselves in relationship or really leaning into that.
2:34: And so we’re going to be diving into all the weeds as to what this viral reel has gone.
2:38: If you haven’t seen it, you can go look at the comments.
2:40: It’s there.
2:40: You’ll find it on Instagram.
2:42: Yeah, it was really crazy.
2:45: So the clip.
2:45: was with our podcast guest Ian Brennan, and she was talking about being in a marriage that was no longer serving her anymore and wanting to leave that marriage and she was actually speaking about when she was 22 years old.
2:59: She was reflecting on the past, but of course, you know, we took a clip from it and it went viral and a lot of assumptions were made, and it was really interesting to see the women come out in full support and the men come out with a Lot of judgment, assumptions, anger, vitriol.
3:16: So we wanted to start by reading just a few of the comments, mainly from men because honestly the women were really supportive and then we were gonna kind of go into break it down, yeah, break it, break it down.
3:27: So one of the, I think the number one comment that we got the most of was women will sacrifice their family for happiness and men will sacrifice their happiness for family.
3:39: That was, let’s just peel that one back.
3:42: I was like let’s just start there.
3:44: I mean, I, it makes me really sad but that’s how men feel.
3:51: To some extent, like it’s not like we’re sacrificing the family when we are deciding to finally choose ourselves in a relationship.
3:59: Yeah, I also was really surprised because I’m sorry, I’ve never heard that.
4:03: I had never heard that before.
4:04: clearly it’s going around in the men’s world, but also it made me sad because You know, Karin and I are both in very like loving, joyful relationships and to witness that there’s this belief that men cannot be happy as well in the relationship, like they’re going to sacrifice their happiness.
4:24: For the family is so heartbreaking because one, we only get one life.
4:28: Why would you want to not try to create a dynamic that that creates happiness for both parties and also the children are witnessing your supposed unhappiness then as well, which is not doing them any favors.
4:41: I know, I feel that so deeply too, and I do believe there is a world where you can have a relationship with someone else where.
4:48: You’re neither of you’re sacrificing.
4:50: You’re actually choosing to actively be in the relationship because it serves both of you, because there’s love there.
4:57: I also think that, you know, a lot of this, this reel that went off was talking about divorce and wanting to leave a marriage.
5:04: I also think that that choice is there too.
5:07: So it’s really sad to see that there is this assumption that you have to choose.
5:13: Yourself over something else and that’s bad.
5:16: Yeah, and then I it actually reminded me in the beginning when this first went viral, you and I both were talking to this one man who was saying, oh, you know, relationships are transactional and it’s for, you know, money and finances like to stay together and all these things, and it did over time now made me realize there’s a huge generational divide as well in how we view marriage and our parents’ generation really is like you stay together no matter what forever regardless of how Happiness like that’s the least important thing, and younger generations are, you know, I think looking at it very differently, hesitant maybe even to get into marriage or recognizing that, you know, women feel a certain way and men feel a certain way in regards to how they view marriage.
5:58: Another big thing that was mentioned was the statistic the statistic around how many women initiate divorce versus men.
6:06: It’s a very high statistic and it’s mostly educated women.
6:09: And it’s interesting because the way that men pose that statistic in our comments was like in a very defensive manner.
6:14: But to me, you know, and I think for you too, I don’t want to speak for you, but it’s like an invitation into well if that’s happening, why?
6:21: Why is that happening?
6:22: Why is that statistic so high?
6:24: It’s an invitation to a conversation of what’s really going on.
6:28: Yeah, and it’s almost like it’s also an invitation for men to be also able to walk away from a marriage.
6:33: I think men on the other side of that one thing that to your comment was I think men.
6:38: Really, how do I say this?
6:41: Feel really good about commitment, and they feel like they’re committed to their families and to the marriage, and they’ll choose that over themselves.
6:50: And there’s this like attachment or this pride or this loyalty to that.
6:55: And so I say that with like I also think there’s an invitation here for men to also feel comfortable to leave a marriage if it’s no longer supporting you.
7:02: I think it’s more rare for men to speak up because they will also one put their feelings underneath the rugs.
7:09: They want to do the best thing.
7:11: It’s the worst thing to leave your marriage.
7:13: You are the man of the relationships.
7:15: You are committed to the relationship.
7:17: So there’s this like assumption that men have to stay in the marriage.
7:22: Yeah, that makes total sense.
7:24: Yeah.
7:25: What are your thoughts on like the male loneliness epidemic that’s been talked about so much lately?
7:30: I mean, I think there’s a female loneliness.
7:32: I mean there’s both.
7:33: I think actually both parties are feeling lonely just in a completely different way, but totally and that’s the part that makes me even more sad.
7:40: Like the other question, the other person that we were talking to in our comments that was so interesting.
7:44: I like kind of pushed back and I’m like I’m so curious like how could you make these assumptions about this woman.
7:50: , Alana specifically in the real when you have a son and you have kids, like when you like, you know, wouldn’t you want the best for your son and for your daughter.
8:00: And he pushed back and he was like, well, because my wife left me and my family after 23 years.
8:05: And to bring it back to what you were saying, that defensiveness, like I think there’s also this sense of like we have to have empathy and understanding that men are also getting hurt from us just leaving a relationship, like getting up and just leaving a relationship.
8:20: There is this wound that’s left of abandoned.
8:22: , that they’re navigating.
8:25: I think a lot of the pain that was shown throughout our Instagram and the comments was that pain being reflected back to us as to like, well, let her get up and go and like leave for the money or just leave the family.
8:36: Like there’s all this pain that men are also holding and I think where men are holding that, they’re holding that in the place of like projecting that and making women the victim, but they’re not getting compassionately curious or being able to hold the space for like, yeah, it hurts that.
8:52: I’m no longer in this, but the like my wife left me.
8:55: And instead of just saying that, they say like oh women are the ones like.
9:01: Breaking the marriages, it’s their faults.
9:03: They forgot about their kids and they’re forgetting about me.
9:06: Yeah, and that’s what you end up hearing and what you end up seeing versus I think there’s also an invitation for men to just be honest with like it also, it sucks that the marriage was broken up.
9:15: Why can’t we talk about those feelings?
9:17: Yeah, yeah, and I think that is a perfect prime entryway into the fact that another comment that was said is like, oh well, men know how to handle their emotions.
9:26: Women are the crazy ones.
9:27: Women are the ones that are all over the place that you don’t know how to handle.
9:31: Your emotions, and that makes me think about, you know, that one, I don’t think men actually handle their emotions at all.
9:39: A lot of the comments were emotional, but also like you had spoken to this previously in a different conversation, but men are not invited into expressing their emotions, and I know you talk about that a lot, but yeah, can you expand on that?
9:52: Yeah, well, I mean like this is.
9:54: I think this is the crutch of everything, right?
9:56: I think as human beings, I hate that we’re using genders because it’s so generalized.
10:00: I think both men and women don’t know how to express themselves.
10:03: I think women are in a time right now where they get to that point in the relationship where they have been suppressing themselves for so long and they finally get the confidence, the power.
10:13: blow up and like share their emotions and it feels like it’s chaotic and men are like, what the fuck she’s crazy.
10:19: And like that’s not what’s happening.
10:21: It’s just that she’s finally feeling comfortable to share.
10:23: I also think there’s an invitation for men to also share, and I think there’s this desire to have as the United States or the world or whatever, human beings don’t.
10:34: They think emotional chaos is bad.
10:38: You know, it’s a bad thing that you’re chaotic.
10:40: It’s a bad thing that you’re dramatic.
10:41: It’s a bad thing that you’re sharing your emotions and expressing yourself.
10:45: I think what does come a lot easier for women is to connect to that emotions because we have that divine sense of femininity within us.
10:54: We’re more connected to what’s going on to us intuitively.
10:57: I think men still have access to that, but it’s Been years of a lot of men looking weak if they share their emotions and then they think of like, you know, being able to control my emotions is good.
11:11: And I would push back on that and like that’s not good at all, right?
11:15: Yeah, and it’s like culturally has been this creation of well men don’t cry, you know, you don’t cry, hold it in or be strong or all these things and you know, I think as to your point, women are pushing back way more.
11:30: I mean, I think there’s so much emotional immaturity in general in the world and that’s why we are in the world like that’s why the world is where it is because we don’t know how to handle our emotions or to have clear communication or to talk about how we’re really feeling.
11:42: But I do think too that women are in this interesting place where they’re becoming more empowered and they’re learning, they’re wanting to learn how to express better, hence the whole reason of our podcast, and I think that men have not been invited into that conversation yet and and so it comes out as anger and rage and frustration and judgment and so what do you think would help men get invited in the conversation?
12:07: I mean, we both have very expressive partners, and I think creating a safe space for that.
12:14: It’s really interesting actually.
12:15: I was talking to a friend this morning and she’s going through a thing with her husband and she said, She, he, he, he has, you could call it ADD, you could call it just like, not fully wanting to do all the things on the list, right?
12:29: Like ignores or she’ll give him things to do and then he doesn’t do them and then he makes all these excuses.
12:35: And she said like ever so often she blows up like it gets to a place where she freaks out and she explodes on him and then he’s like, what the hell?
12:43: Like do you not love me?
12:44: Do you, are you not happy?
12:45: And she goes, you know, if you want to be happy, I want, she’s so extreme.
12:50: But she was like, if you want to be happy, I give you full permission to go and find that if that’s not with me, but know that I actually love you so much and know that this is how you are.
13:00: And I know that you’re not going to change this unless you want to change this.
13:04: And so I’m gonna like let it go and I’m gonna not say anything and then ever so often.
13:09: Going to explode because it gets to a point where I’m really frustrated, but I don’t love you any less.
13:15: I’m just expressing those emotions.
13:17: Now again, not saying that’s a healthy way to express it, but I loved that she was just like, it doesn’t make me love you any less.
13:23: And I think coming back to your question is just, I think we need to create safe spaces for men to release whether it’s amongst themselves, whether it’s with us.
13:31: I think that we don’t do any favors to them by.
13:35: Belittling them or or be making them feel weak or, you know, I mean I have a very sensitive husband and I’ve tried really hard not to, you know, say you’re a pussy or like, oh just toughen up or you’re so sensitive.
13:48: I try not to say those things because I’m so grateful that he expresses that part of himself to me.
13:54: Something that’s coming up as you’re saying that.
13:56: I think what we have to realize is that men have emotions too.
14:00: And I think like the invitation that you’re talking about is like a beautiful space for us to say that.
14:05: I think one thing that men hear all the time, because women are so good at, so good.
14:11: I’m going to use the word so good, but I guess the words are also like women have this way of seeing men in ways that they do not see themselves and by us constantly calling them out, they they tend to create the story within themselves of like, well, I’m never good enough for you, or I’m not worthy of you, or there’s I always do something wrong because we’re always talking about it.
14:33: And what I’ve realized, I think the invitation here too is to create that emotional safety comes in.
14:39: , asking more questions versus making assumptions.
14:46: I know like even in my relationship with Nick, like sometimes I’d be like, I see these things, but like me being even asking the question like, are you open for feedback?
14:55: And now you’re asking them for their permission to share what you’re seeing.
14:59: , because I also think there’s also a beautiful mirror for women because of my own process and my own relationship, anytime that Nick would trigger me or to your friend’s perspective of like, I’m stuffing it under the rug and then all of a sudden I want to blow up, I think the bigger invitation is like why, what’s causing her to blow up and usually it’s something within ourselves.
15:21: So one moment, I remember when I was working really really hard and Nick had he’s entrepreneur, so he had so much time in the day.
15:28: And I would get upset with him and be like, you’re not doing anything around the house.
15:31: And what did that come down to?
15:33: I’d be like, you’re not doing anything else you’re not helping me.
15:35: And what I realized the trigger in me was me recognizing that like, oh, I actually have FOMO that you have more time to do whatever you want, and I’m the one that’s tied to a computer.
15:45: And so I was projecting that on to him, but I took that as like a mirror back to me of like he’s not doing anything around the house.
15:52: When he was doing things around the house, he just wasn’t doing them.
15:56: In the structured way that I would host that.
15:58: So like that’s the kind of conversation I think that women have to also see within themselves.
16:03: It’s like how do we create the safety, but also see that us reacting is actually an invitation for us to see within us.
16:11: Yeah.
16:12: I love that so much.
16:14: That’s awesome.
16:15: Yeah, I think we’re all Air for one another.
16:17: So if you’re, and that’s exactly, you know, her husband works from home and he’s home all day and she’s out doing stuff.
16:23: Yeah, so that’s so funny because I didn’t even know.
16:27: Yeah, but I think.
16:28: That is it, and I think she holds a lot of responsibility just as a mother and that’s, that’s a conversation.
16:33: I mean, that’s a whole another topic, but I think a lot when kids come into play, there’s a responsibility that is literally rewired inside of you as a mother that I think.
16:44: Sometimes men don’t give enough credit to understanding that.
16:49: It’s like, you know, if you look to nature, the mothers of animals are so fierce.
16:54: They’re so protective, like everything is about the safety of the animal and the survival of the child of the pet of the pet, the child, the the puppy, the dog, whatever the animal, the cub, and you know, men aren’t wired that same way.
17:08: They’re wired a different way.
17:09: And I think what I am witnessing too, and maybe you can speak a little to this as well is like there’s a responsibility that women are holding.
17:17: And there’s a frustration because, you know, we’re living in a time where women aren’t just stay at home moms and maybe don’t want to be just stay at home moms, but now they’re taking on all half the responsibilities of the household and the and the life and the money and the work and all the things plus caring for the kids.
17:34: And one of the complaints I see a lot in women is like men are having to be asked to do things and that’s probably also a frustration of my friend is like having to ask.
17:42: It’s like, well, I don’t want you to have to ask.
17:45: I want you to just see and do.
17:47: And that’s a conversation Austin and I have sometimes it’s like, I don’t want you to ask me.
17:52: I just want you to see I need it.
17:54: And I think feeling safe to have those conversations are also really important because that’s where I think we get to the place where we blow up too is when we don’t speak that and.
18:06: I think when you can say like, hey, I need you to just see where I need help and support and maybe you give examples the first few times and then you you try to see if they can see those holes and fill them but that’s something else I see a lot of.
18:21: I think there’s so much sun pack there.
18:23: So I think a lot of women talked to this about the like the mental load, the things that they like, especially I don’t have kids or anything, but I’ve been seeing a lot of women in households saying like there’s this mental load of like I have to take care of the kids.
18:33: I have to do the laundry.
18:34: And they’re like begging their husband to take on some of that weight and they’re just saying like I just want you to do things around the house.
18:41: One, I think in that like men are not doing the best job of getting involved in the household stuff because women have taken over.
18:48: So there’s two things that are playing out.
18:50: One, Men are not doing the household things because you’re constantly doing them.
18:55: I think that women also have to learn to learn to like let their men take ownership of that.
19:02: Like a good example of that like if you’re going to say, hey, you’re going to make the kids lunches today.
19:07: You kind of have to surrender to how they make the kids lunches if you really want them to start learning how to do so.
19:12: The other thing that came up when you were saying that that I think about as well in like my own relationship is like I think so often we expect people to know exactly what we want.
19:22: But we can’t.
19:23: And I think, you know, from my own personal experience in general, whenever I’ve wanted Nick to like there’s been like emotional moments where I’m like, Nick, I really like I’m going through it internally and you don’t see me.
19:36: Like you don’t see that I’m going through it.
19:38: Like why haven’t you asked me like how I’m doing or like why haven’t you dove in deeper into my process and I think what comes up for me is that for most of my life, I never had anyone really ask me questions or deeper questions so that I’m projecting onto him and being like, why aren’t you asking me deeper questions?
19:54: And he’s like, well, I don’t know what you’re looking for, right?
19:57: And like that was like early on in our relationship, but now.
20:01: What I have started to step into in moments where I, I have to ask and let him know that I need him and be like, babe, I’m really going through it.
20:07: Can we like spend some time today to talk about it versus expecting him to ask me things.
20:13: But I think that is going to teach him so much more further because like later on now later on in my relationship, he’s asking like, hey, I see.
20:21: That you’re really going through it.
20:22: Do you want to sit down and talk about it?
20:24: And because he learned that, right?
20:26: So I think we also have the invitation here is having more conversations versus expectations.
20:33: And I think a lot of our expectations are coming from a place of us trying to keep us safe and we don’t realize that we’re trying to keep ourselves safe.
20:40: Yeah, and just to add to that, I think It has to sometimes be more than one conversation.
20:45: Like something I said to my friend this morning was, well, maybe you need to have a conversation about this.
20:50: She’s like, oh, I’ve had so many.
20:51: I’m like, well, maybe it’s the way you’re saying it.
20:53: Maybe you need to say it a different way, maybe you need to use examples like I, there’s certain times I think on both sides, men and women, we have to really like have a different, we have to change the way we’re conversing because a lot of times too, I think we’re, we get to that place where we explode or we’re frustrated and then that’s where the conversation’s coming from instead of seeking to understand.
21:12: And then trying to explain how they’re feeling.
21:15: Let’s talk about seeking to understand because I think that’s like the crutch of everything and and miscommunication failures is like we think we’re talking by talking at each other.
21:25: There’s so much more talking that happens and communication that happens and asking questions and getting curious.
21:32: Like how often have you been in conversation with someone?
21:34: I’ve noticed this so many times.
21:35: I’ll be sitting at the table and someone’s talking.
21:37: I’m like, you guys are both having your individual conversations.
21:41: Neither of you are actually hearing hearing one another.
21:44: You’re just speaking.
21:46: Like it’s like when you’re in argument with your partner and you want to be so badly right that you’re like no matter what he says.
21:52: I’m going to be right.
21:54: And there’s that’s not going to help the communication.
21:57: What’s really going to help the communication is getting curious as to like, OK, so tell me more about why you feel like you’re right.
22:03: Tell me more about your process.
22:05: And I think that key thing is also going to be the invitation to bring it back for men to be able to share what’s going on, not necessarily like telling them at them or doing it at them.
22:17: It’s just like, hey.
22:19: Tell me, like what’s coming up for you in this moment?
22:21: How do you view this?
22:22: Like what is your perspective about this?
22:24: Like there’s so much more understanding in that versus like I think I’m right and then the other men’s over here either shutting down or also or also proving themselves.
22:35: Yeah, and I think exactly as you said, it goes back to what you said about or what we’ve been talking about creating emotional safety for men, and I think that is the way to do it is by inviting them into the conversation instead of telling them what they’re doing wrong, and I think that’s something.
22:49: That so many men experience like from from all of us and not just men, women too, from a young age of our parents like how many of our parents actually were like, oh my gosh, sweetie, how are you feeling?
23:01: Why, why, what is making you upset?
23:02: What’s underneath of this?
23:04: How, you know, how can we work on this?
23:06: Like no one talks that way to their kids.
23:09: I mean, maybe now our generation is trying to gentle parent or like seek to understand, but I think that we have to deprogram ourselves from that.
23:18: So it just came into my mind when we had Alejandra on the podcast, she kind of pushed back on the idea to understand when it comes to communication and partnership.
23:27: And I think this is also really beautiful because I think sometimes we don’t necessarily have to understand where our partners coming from.
23:34: We just got to be able to see like I get it.
23:36: Like I see where you’re coming from.
23:38: I might not relate to your experience, but I see where you’re coming from.
23:42: Like there’s so many moments in my own partnership where I’m constantly like, oh.
23:47: I don’t experience that at all, but you’re having that experience and that’s what’s valid.
23:52: Because I think sometimes we only understand in relationship to things that we resonate with and we’re hoping that if we resonate with them, then this is the right thing.
24:01: But at the end of the day, it really doesn’t matter.
24:03: It’s just getting to a place of being able to be like, I get that you’re experiencing that.
24:08: That is your experience, that is absolutely valid.
24:11: Now I see why you’re reacting this way or why you’re responding this way or why you’re desiring to do this thing.
24:16: And the more that we can do that in a relationship, the more that we’re gonna feel like the relationship is closer and you get connected and there’s more invitation for emotional safety to what you’re talking about.
24:28: Yeah, and we talked about this before, but I think the crux of everyone is wanting to be seen, wanting to be seen, wanting to be understood, wanting to be validated and to your point, like you don’t have to be, there’s no right really because you’re just coming from each other’s perspectives and you’re missing one another.
24:42: So how do you find that reflection?
24:46: And I think the more as a fully expressed woman, because I know a lot of women listen to this.
24:50: You know, as a fully expressed woman, the reason why you’re fully expressing yourself is to be felt, to be seen, to be heard and understood.
24:58: And so the more that we can start to unpack that for ourselves, the greater capacity we’re going to be able to do that for the men in our lives.
25:05: And I think as women, we have so many gifts and intuitiveness and we immediately go search for the personal development books.
25:16: We immediately see on a podcast.
25:17: We immediately try to be a better human.
25:21: I think it’s not that men don’t want to be better.
25:24: I just don’t think they have the easier connection to that.
25:29: As we do.
25:30: And so I think like to further this down is like the more that we because especially bringing back to the episode, like a lot of women are just divorcing and leaving the house.
25:40: Like I just, I don’t know the dynamics of everyone’s relationships and there’s going to be situations where like abuse and things like that, extreme abuse or it’s welcome for you to leave the house and it’s not safe for you to be there.
25:51: But if the relationship is safe enough for you to have a conversation, fully expressing yourself as to why you’re leaving, not just leaving.
25:58: It is also very important to have that conversation and share because I think we also avoid.
26:04: Having those hard conversations because we want to protect ourselves.
26:09: It is scary to admit that I am choosing to leave a relationship, and here is why.
26:15: And we don’t know how people are going to respond on the other side.
26:18: But as a fully expressed woman, it’s really important for us to step into being honest about leaving the relationship and why.
26:26: And it’s OK because it’s for your own higher good and the relationship no longer meets you and that.
26:30: Yeah.
26:31: How do you feel like you discern what’s a good question.
26:35: The point, you know, like when you’re at that place.
26:38: Oh my gosh, I feel like this is for every single person.
26:40: I don’t feel like I can answer like what’s the good thing for you, but I think my own personal journey with like knowing if I’m going to stay in this relationship or not, like is the relationship still teaching me and is there still love there?
26:51: I think that like if I’m constantly being able to like be able to fall in love with my partner or constantly find a way to grow together and we’re both expanding and it’s serving both of us, then I’ll stay.
27:00: , but I’m also in a relationship where there isn’t a lot of pain or like abuse or like emotional abuse, so I can’t necessarily talk to the extreme versions of that.
27:10: I also believe that whatever choice you make is a part of your story.
27:14: Like, your soul will end up learning, I agree, will end up learning the thing, yeah, no matter what whether you learn it in that relationship or the next relationship.
27:22: So I think just trusting whatever you need for yourself in that moment.
27:26: I think the conversation that we’re trying to have here is like how can we be more feel more safe to express ourselves versus just ghosting.
27:34: Filing for divorce, being extreme in certain situations.
27:39: What are your thoughts about that?
27:40: Yeah, I agree.
27:41: I think it’s person to person.
27:42: I was just thinking.
27:46: In relationship dynam well two things I guess I’d speak to.
27:49: One is that, you know, porn is also like a huge issue.
27:54: With men, and I almost think sometimes like men will escape to, it could be work, it could be porn, it could be alcohol, it could be drugs, and I think that they can numb themselves long enough or distract themselves long enough to like be OK just continuing along the path of what they’re doing.
28:10: Whereas like you said to your point, women are really seeking self-help.
28:14: Women are seeking growth, they’re seeking and there’s.
28:16: Definitely men doing that too, but I would say it’s definitely majority of women right now, because there’s a deeper invitation for women and an ease.
28:24: and so I think that what men sometimes don’t get is like when women start to awaken to the deeper sense of self and what they truly desire, it’s almost like they’re finally given permission to be the person they wanted to be.
28:39: All along and maybe that person wasn’t in existence in the beginning of the marriage because they were still suppressing themselves.
28:46: And men have a lot of distractions to like be OK with processing and like ignoring and avoiding.
28:54: And I think because women are so intact with their intuition, like I think the second men turn on their intuition, they can’t ignore it either.
29:01: I just think men are really good at ignoring the intuition, and I think there’s a huge invitation right now for men to come into that intuition, to come into that kind of more feminine energy, but we again go back going back to the masculine feminine roles.
29:15: I really think that and I’d love to know your opinion with Nick, but like Austin and I are always ebbing and flowing in our divine masculine and feminine.
29:23: Sometimes I’m in my masculine, sometimes he’s in his masculine.
29:26: Like it really does shift back and forth.
29:28: And the more that I’ve allowed that to be OK, the better and deeper our relationship has gotten versus me wanting him to be like this big buff, whatever, which isn’t really realistic.
29:38: It’s programming that I have had from a childhood of what I think a man is.
29:43: And the more that I’ve let go of those cultural and gender norms, the more that our relationship has deepened and the more he’s had permission to heal himself and like go towards his intuition and so I don’t know what do you, what are your thoughts and I mean, that’s a great topic.
29:56: I mean, at the end of the day, both men and women both have feminine and masculine dynamics.
30:00: It’s about balancing both and being able to know both.
30:03: I think men have this pressure to be in their masculine and what you were talking about.
30:08: I also think that women have a lot of pressure to being their masculine today anyways and so like there’s a lot of wounded masculine energy in women because The workforce, the United States, our culture, we’ve stepped into these things, but we need the masculine as women.
30:24: So like I think about it as like, yeah, I connect from a business standpoint.
30:28: Like I connect to my intuition.
30:29: I know like there’s so much.
30:33: Beautifulness and just being able to listen to my intuition, be with my emotions, allow myself to flow.
30:38: But what’s going to take action on that?
30:40: That’s the masculine.
30:41: That’s the container.
30:43: and for men too, I think there’s an invitation for if you feel like you’re very masculine and you’re very committed and there’s a lot you have, you feel a lot of resistance to dropping your commitment and you’re like attached to commitment, bringing it to marriage like.
30:59: I think that there’s an invitation for you to not be so rigid, to to learn and to be with like, OK, well, no matter what my rigidness is saying, like what is true for me in this moment and how can I make decisions from that place.
31:12: And I think women tap into that easier, but I think men have the same invitation as well and they just completely uncapped.
31:20: But they need the masculine to take action on whatever is present for them in this moment.
31:25: At the end of the day, so true.
31:27: Yeah, yeah.
31:28: one thing I wanna make sure that we tap on for this is like how do you think or what do you think?
31:35: We can do continue to be fully expressed in relationship, but also invite our men to be fully expressed and why.
31:44: I personally think speaking back to what we said, just like having deeper conversations, like having uncomfortable conversations.
31:55: And I also would say understanding that relation, you know, I’ve been.
31:59: With my partner for 10 years, like you have periods of time where you feel like roommates.
32:04: You have periods of time where you are deeply in love.
32:07: You have moments and invitations to go deeper.
32:12: You have periods of growth where you’re gonna feel like you’re growing on your own and not with them, and I think.
32:17: Being open to understanding that that is a healthy, in my opinion, a healthy dynamic of being able to ebb and flow with that and it doesn’t, there’s plenty of moments maybe when we felt like roommates that I could have said, oh this isn’t my person but I think being willing to look at the programming around marriage and around relationships and asking like.
32:39: If I were to look back at the last 10 years, am I a better person now with my partner than I was 10 years ago and through, I mean, yes, the answer is yes, and do I see a future where we can keep evolving and I think to your point, like checking back in and having conversations around that, having shared vision, having the ability to see that, you know, a partnership is two people working together and yeah, having being open.
33:05: In having deeper conversations around and asking questions around how you can invite someone into or your partner into that space.
33:14: I love that so much because I think you were talking so much about seasons and I think it’s OK to be realized that our relationship is going to go through seasons.
33:22: the other mindset that I love to step into is like there is a world where we are better as a fully expressed man and a fully expressed woman in a relationship.
33:32: And I do think that we are actually meant to invite ourselves more into that through the hard conversations, through being triggered, through being activated.
33:40: I think through that hard, if you will, is where you find your fullest express self, is where you invite him into his fullest express self.
33:51: And I think sometimes we so badly want it to be so easy, but when you realize that Whatever comes up for you and your marriage or whatever the corner is or the relationship is or the edges, it’s a beautiful invitation for your next version of yourself.
34:09: We’re not, I think sometimes in a relationship we’re always constantly living at this like, well, this is your fault.
34:14: It’s like at each other versus seeing it as like it’s an invitation for me.
34:18: Or it’s an invitation for them.
34:20: And how do you make that also an invitation for the relationship?
34:23: Because I think there’s 3 relationships in a relationship.
34:26: There’s like the one that you have with yourself, the one that he has with himself, as well as the one that you have together together.
34:32: And so we have to realize that we are constantly mirroring each other as invitations for us to blossom.
34:39: You know God in this world and not say like You’re gonna be planted and you don’t need to be watered or go through seasons or go through the winter just so that you’re just gonna be a sunshine all the time.
34:51: Yeah, we actually need the darkness in our relationships to also find the sunshine and be the light.
34:56: And I definitely want to share this quote.
34:59: I shared it with you off camera, but we listened to a talk, Austin and I with Robert Grant, and he said we judge what we attract, sorry, we attract what we judge until we no longer judge what we attracted.
35:13: We attract what we judge until we no longer judge what we attracted, and I feel like that is so true in a dynamic of a relationship and after being with someone for 10 a decade, I can tell you that when you look at yourself, when you’re feeling triggered, when you’re feeling frustrated, or even when you scroll past a comment or a real that triggers you and you feel the need to comment, there’s something there for you to see in yourself.
35:35: And I think having that mindset.
35:37: Has helped us so much because it has stopped me from exploding on Austin on certain things because I realized like, oh, there’s an invitation for me to look at myself in this.
35:45: And if I’m frustrated by this behavior, like what is it reflecting to me?
35:49: And that has become so visible in my life in every area, not just relationships and I think that the more we do that, the less triggered we get because we realize it’s an invitation to heal within ourselves.
36:01: The The vision that I have based on what you said for the world is like how beautiful would it be if every single time you got triggered or activated in a relationship, you’re like, Hey, this is what’s coming up for me, or this is the story that I’m creating.
36:15: So you’re taking responsibility for that.
36:17: I think that’s also the missing piece and a lot of communication for people is like we’re saying you did this or Because you did this, this is how I’m feeling versus using the language of like, hey, like when you said that this is what came up for me.
36:31: Yeah, imagine if all the men said that in our comment instead of like calling her a see you next Tuesday or or like, oh she took half the money or all these assumptions, but it’s like you’re obviously coming from pain totally and be like, OK, I heard like this is a very conscious world, but if someone saw our real and like if you saw the real, she says, I need to leave the relationship.
36:51: I want to leave the relationship.
36:53: You know, if men in the comment that were wounded and be like, when I hear that, I feel that you want to that I’m not worthy of your love.
37:02: Or when I hear that, I feel like you’re not left your commitment or I’m going to be left alone.
37:07: Yeah.
37:07: Or when I hear that, I hear that you’re not committed and I’m more committed than you are.
37:13: Or when I hear that I Feel like the little boy in me that got left when my mom left me.
37:22: Or like when I hear that, I don’t know, there’s just so many examples, so many examples and I think the more that we have those kinds of conversations and we invite that into our relationships.
37:32: The greater we’re going to feel more connected and also the bigger invitation for us to choose ourselves.
37:37: Yeah.
37:37: , what made me sad is that, you know, we responded in that way to a lot of these men and either one, most of them did not respond back or two, they got even more defensive and it’s like no one’s attacking you.
37:50: We’re asking to have a deeper conversation.
37:53: And I think at the end of the day, even though there is this kind of campaign I see of women just like very frustrated and and hateful towards men.
38:01: At the end of the day, I think we do want men.
38:03: We just want men in a different capacity.
38:05: We’re craving more.
38:06: We’re craving more of men and we just don’t know how to invite them into the conversation fully, but I think that, you know, they’re, we want you men.
38:15: We just don’t, we want you in a healthy capacity just like we want to be in a healthy capacity.
38:20: It takes like to your point like this like movement that’s happening where women are frustrated and they’re angry and they’re like fuck this, I’m out, you know, and like.
38:29: I’m better and men are destroying everything, blah blah blah energy.
38:34: I mean, we’re closing off the door.
38:36: We’re locking the door and saying there is, there is no opportunity for you to walk in when at the end of the day that’s all that we want.
38:42: Yeah.
38:43: Like at the end of the day what we really want is to feel closer to one another.
38:46: One thing that we do want is to feel understood and heard.
38:49: But when we step into this like anger and frustration and also what’s hard to say it’s like it’s not that you So like then the bigger question I think comes up is like, OK, how do I express my anger and my frustration but also create a door for invitation.
39:01: Express both.
39:02: Like there there is a place for duality.
39:05: I think you can hold both things like as human beings like we are multi-dimensional humans.
39:08: We have multiple parts going on with us ourselves.
39:11: A lot of the times we feel like we have to identify with the part of us that is the loudest and the truth is, no, you can identify with both.
39:19: You can also not identify with either and just be like they’re here and be super unattached from.
39:24: Your own experience and just say I realize that this is coming up for me.
39:28: I realized that I have a lot of frustration and anger.
39:31: What would it look like for me to go process this anger and frustration in a healthy container and not project that onto you as like you are the person that’s causing my anger.
39:42: It makes me think of the example of life and death like so often you, you Someone dies and then a baby is born or you see that situation a lot and I think that it’s the example that you can hold both, you can be sad that you’ve lost someone you love and you can be so immensely joyful welcoming this new baby into the world, you know, and I think that’s the same as like we can mourn the frustration and the anger and we can express that and we can also find the joy and find the gratitude for the lesson in all of it or for the experience.
40:12: The other thing I think would be so beautiful for everyone to understand is like when we are experiencing extreme emotions like energy or frustration or anger at the underneath those emotions is usually sadness and also the deepest, most vulnerable parts of you.
40:26: So what we have to see what’s happening is like we’re feeling something.
40:30: There’s a part of us that feels very vulnerable and it’s very vulnerable to say the thing that we’re really feeling and so it shows up as the anger and the frustration and I don’t know, the controlling, the managing, the controlling of the environment or of a home or how your partner does something or something like that because we’re craving safety and it feels more safe to control the parts of ourselves to keep us safe from us expressing our vulnerability.
40:56: So the invitation I think for people is like if you are feeling this extense amount of anger and frustration or whatever in relationship or towards men.
41:04: get curious as to like what that meat is there because I promise you there’s something even deeper that you really do want.
41:12: You’re just not really giving yourself the opportunity to express that in a way that someone else can hear you and that.
41:18: Yeah.
41:19: And yeah, and actually the last thing I’d say in regards this brought up another Common I’m thinking of that someone said, which is actually a few people.
41:26: All I hear is III or she’s choosing herself and you know that there’s this belief that women are selfish for choosing themselves, but at the end of the day, you only have yourself.
41:38: So it’s so interesting to me to hear so many men commenting on that because Yes, you’re in partnership and it’s about both of you.
41:45: But if you’re not being the best version of yourself, period, whether you’re the man, the woman, doesn’t matter.
41:50: You’re not gonna be able to show up as the best version of yourself in the relationship.
41:54: So it does come down to I.
41:55: It doesn’t mean you have, you know, there’s a difference between selfless, selfish, and like doing what’s in the best interest of your own soul.
42:02: But I do think that It’s There needs to be a reframe around what’s considered selfish because men should be choosing themselves to a certain extent as well.
42:13: And they should be looking at what their soul is being called to do as well instead of thinking it’s all sacrifice.
42:20: Who are we with that told us the The between the selfish and the selfless.
42:25: There’s like an in between.
42:26: There’s a word.
42:28: We were with someone that told us this, but whatever that word is is the balance of that.
42:32: It’s like where you’re not necessarily being selfish, but you’re also not being selfless and you’re also full, full.
42:39: It was self full, that full?
42:41: So being like what does it look like to show up as self full where you are choosing yourself but you’re also being considered as someone else, where you are essentially doing the best thing that’s for you but also not completely.
42:52: Disagreeing, it was Cheryl.
42:55: Oh yeah, OK, divorced mom Cheryl.
42:59: she said self full because I think that also is the place here and I think we struggle so much as human beings to find duality and know that there is space for both.
43:09: And yes, and there are going to be moments where you would have to choose yourself harder.
43:13: And there’s going to be other moments where you can also be choose yourself and see the other person and be like, this is not something towards you or I see where you’re coming from.
43:23: It’s the conversation for both to what you were just talking about.
43:25: Yeah, it’s the journey of I into the journey of we.
43:28: And if you can show up as the best version of yourself, I mean, there’s a reason.
43:32: Gande said, like, be the change you want to see in the world because it starts with you.
43:35: And I think that is in the macrocosm and the microcosm and the more that you show up as the best version of yourself, the better you’re going to be in your relationship and your partnerships as a parent, as a person in society.
43:46: The other thing I want to say that just came up to my head back to like the comments that you said, like where people are like women or the men were like men, women choose themselves and men choose a relationship.
43:56: I would just say that is a beautiful mirror for men to realize that you’re not choosing yourself enough.
44:00: Yeah.
44:01: Or where in your life are you feeling like you’re not choosing you?
44:05: Yeah.
44:07: So true.
44:08: And for women too, if you’re hearing this and you feel like so often that there’s other people in your life that are choosing themselves and it triggers you.
44:14: OK, great.
44:15: Where within myself am I not choosing me?
44:18: I also think women choose the children more than the men overall.
44:22: And so that’s another idea.
44:23: Yeah, yeah, we don’t need to get into that, but I do think that I thought it was interesting so many men said that and there are obviously women that do abandon the family and things like that, but I think, I mean just in our community of friends and mothers like the kids are the number one priority, which also I could see how men perceive that as them choosing themselves if they leave the relationship, you know, so.
44:45: There’s a lot here.
44:47: There’s so many here.
44:48: I mean, I don’t have a child, but I also have a dog and like there’s a lot of moments where I will choose him over me.
44:54: but I also make conscious choices for myself.
44:56: So I think there’s even opportunity there for mothers and I don’t know what the balance is, but what does it look like for you to choose yourself as as a service to choosing your children, because in general, I think, yes, we’re constantly choosing our purse, our children.
45:11: But they’re not going to feel fulfilled if you’re not pouring into yourself, right?
45:15: It’s just it’s just going to show them an example of that.
45:18: And again, the biggest lesson I think that it comes down to is like as long as we’re taking care of ourselves, the rest of our world is taken care of.
45:25: If we are at zero capacity, the rest of the world is going to feel that.
45:29: So like I think a lot of mothers, and I’m not a mother yet, and I know we have an intuitive instinct, but we have to remember that if we’re at zero, our children are going to feel at 0.
45:38: When we’re at 0, that’s when we snap out.
45:40: kids.
45:41: When we’re at 0, that’s when we lose it, you know.
45:43: So I think we have to recognize like what does it look like to choose ourselves in service of choosing our kids.
45:48: And I think everyone is choosing that internal discernment of what that looks like for themselves.
45:53: I love that.
45:53: I agree 100%.
45:54: Yeah.
45:55: So, anything else that we want to add on this topic?
45:58: I think the summary of this is like there’s a lot of pain on both.
46:02: Sides in relationship, miscommunication.
46:05: A lot of miscommunication, a lot of pain.
46:08: I think we’re also up against a lot of men for generations not feeling comfortable to share.
46:13: And I think as we step into more of our fullest expressed self, I would just invite you to connect back to what does it look like, what does it feel like for you not to be seen and heard.
46:23: Men are feeling that too.
46:25: And we forget that.
46:26: And I think for men, like when you’re feeling abandoned and when you’re feeling like no one sees you or hears you, women are also feeling that as well in different ways.
46:35: And so if we can come back to that, there will be so much more I get it moments and I understand moments versus even more pain because if we, that’s where the pain starts to compound on top of each other and then You’re completely just living from a perspective of pain.
46:57: Yeah, pain and fear.
46:58: I think drive the car a lot.
47:00: Yeah, anything else you want to share?
47:02: I feel like you summed it up perfectly.
47:04: I agree.
47:05: OK.
47:06: Well, thank you so much for listening today.
47:09: This episode was so good.
47:11: Yeah, yeah, we really felt called to address this topic because of the feedback we received and still are receiving, and yeah, we just want to inviteri and I are so passionate about being fully expressed and we want to invite our grand vision is inviting men into their fullest expression too, not just women.
47:31: Yeah, that’s really important to us too because, you know, at the end of the day, what would it look like if the world felt so safe for women, children.
47:40: Any any role, any gender, everyone felt safe to hold their fullest expression, but also people also have the capacity and the skill set to receive someone else’s fullest expression like.
47:53: Yeah, fucking magic happen.
47:55: Yeah, and it’s not about you.
47:57: It’s about you.
48:00: It feels like it’s about you, but it’s not about you.
48:02: I know.
48:04: So yeah, we love you guys.
48:05: Thanks for tuning in.
48:06: See you on the next one.
48:07: Bye.
48:09: Thank you so much for tuning in.
48:10: We really appreciate you being here.
48:12: If you enjoyed this episode, we’d be grateful if you could leave us a review and share it with a friend.
48:17: Also, we would love to hear from you.
48:20: Reach out to us on Instagram and let us know where you feel inspired to express yourself as you embrace this next era.
48:27: We are here to support you and encourage you.
48:30: Before we go, we want to remind you that you are powerful and deserving a fully Expressing who you are.
48:35: Embracing your journey toward authenticity is a vital part of that process, and we’re grateful to be alongside you.
48:42: If you’re looking to dive deeper and connect with others who celebrate their true selves, we invite you to join our community.
48:48: It’s a virtual space for connection and accountability where you can share your experiences and grow together.
48:54: You can find the link in our show notes.
48:56: We can’t wait to welcome you.
48:58: See you on the next one.
Topics we dive into:
- Why it’s hard for some men to find happiness in traditional relationships — and how societal expectations contribute to that feeling
- The rising divorce rate and how it’s largely being initiated by women — and what that tells us about the changing landscape of love
- Whether traditional marriages have become transactional, and what’s needed to shift from obligation to connection
- The myth that men should “just know” — and how that expectation creates distance instead of intimacy
- Why men also hold power and choice in relationship — and how to navigate that with awareness
- How to communicate what you need without blaming, shaming, or expecting your partner to be a mind reader
- How to create emotional safety in a relationship and invite your partner into deeper connection and shared responsibility
- Tools for hearing each other more clearly — and how to listen beyond defensiveness and into truth
- Our personal perspectives and practices that have helped us support the men in our lives while staying connected to our own needs and desires
Whether you’re single, dating, or in a long-term relationship, this episode offers insight into how we can reimagine partnership through the lens of compassion, communication, and conscious choice.
Join The Fully Expressed Community, where you can be surrounded by other women who are also on the same path of personal growth, healing, and uncovering their authentic expression. Being in a community surrounded by others can truly be one of the most supporting and healing containers to support your personal invitation.
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